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How High at 13 yards.

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Bird30, Sep 10, 2011.

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  1. Bird30

    Bird30 TS Member

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    At one time there was a post that stated the heights of patterns at 13 yards for a top single for 60/40 70/30 80/20 and 90/10. I have lost it and need a little help remembering it. Thank you, Dave
     
  2. Shawn

    Shawn Member

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    1 inchs high is 60/40

    2 inchs high is 70/30

    3 inchs high is 80/20

    4 inchs high is 90/10

    5 inchs high is 100%

    This is assuming a 30 inch pattern at 40 yards and you would be patterning a low rib top single.

    Shawn
     
  3. tanda1

    tanda1 Active Member

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    How much different is it for an unsingle?
     
  4. AAtrap

    AAtrap Well-Known Member

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    none.POI is POI.
     
  5. tanda1

    tanda1 Active Member

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    POI is POI? Perhaps at 40 yards. But in the 13 yd example that seems to defy logic.

    The unsingle starts from a lower position relative to the line of sight. Therefore to print, for example, 2" high at 13 yards it will need to rise a greater amount in that distance than the top single. Wouldn't that result in a higher POI at 40yds?
     
  6. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    No. POI is POI..
     
  7. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Tanda1 you are correct. Remember that some trap shooters have very small brains and are easily confused. HMB
     
  8. tanda1

    tanda1 Active Member

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    Gunruner...I have no clue what you are talking about. Expand if you want to...or not.(BTW, Very nice MX15, wish I was in the market)

    Ummm Drew....the second post...the one with the "answers" to the OP's question...that's who.

    OK, OK...POI is POI. Heard it the first time.

    But why?

    Have a look at the crude drawing below and please explain how the shot from the top single and the shot from the unsingle, which exits the muzzel 1+ inches lower, can both pass through the exact same point 2" above the line of sight at 13 yds and still have the same POI at 40 yards.

    Remember, we are talking about the POI at 13 yards ....AND how it relates to actual POI at 40 yards

    [​IMG]




    I guess if POI is POI, the trajectory could look like this. But I wouldn't expect that to happen.
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Bird30

    Bird30 TS Member

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    Shootlow I thought on most trap fields you faced north. I am glad to see you and Huaxfanny are still around making those brilliant deductions. :)
     
  10. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    If you are figuring the distance between the top and un-single barrels, you might as well add in the amount of drop the shot pellets incur also. Thus the shot line would not be straight at 40 yds.. So lets see some diagrams with this information included. Also show the difference in velocities and shot sizes. If you want to know what a pattern looks like at 13 yds., just look at the back of a couple of traps. There usually is at least one pattern shown on one of the traps. As far as POI you would have to put one on there yourself.LOL. This thread brings up the repeated question. Do trapshooters overanalyze things?
     
  11. wlc

    wlc Member

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    From Neil, worth reading.

    http://www.mn-trap.org/tech_corner/n_winston/nw_poi_pattern.html
     
  12. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    I skimmed the 29 page article by Neil Winston but did not readily find what to do for a high rib Unsingle. At the end of the article on pages 28 and 29 he details the way to get the 40 yard POI of a high rib gun. (edited)
     
  13. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Well, just for this discussion, I shrunk my brain down so I can understand an explanation of how a top single, unsingle, or mid single would change the values
    100%, 90/10, 80/20, 70/30 at 13 yards....

    both my o/u (topsingle), side by side, and unsingle are all shooting to the same POI....

    I must be doing something wrong...
     
  14. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    tanda 1's question is this, if the an unsingle barrel is sitting lower than a top single, would not the pattern place higher at 40 yards, than the top single.

    I think what he is asking is if the unsingle has a different angle to it than a top single, wouldn't that cause a higher pattern, even if both had the same given POI at 13 yards. Perhaps this might come into play if the unsingle had a extreme height taper to the rib, lets say 2-1/2 inches at the centerline of the chamber and 2 inches at centerline of the the muzzle.

    But at 40 yards from thso muzzle, shot will drop 4 inches from your POA, and most people shoot the bird at 20 yards from the house, which is a total of 36 yards from the muzzle. At that point the bird is 2 feet below its maximum height of 17 feet 2 inches, so it is not really that important, but is something tanda 1 is questioning.
     
  15. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Doesn't your eye (the rear sight), a tapered rib and front bead on a shotgun barrel act just like iron sights on a rifle? You are elevating the center of the bore. Unsingles have taller ribs, and taper differently to take care of being lower. I don't think the above picture is quite right because shot comes out of the barrel straight, not at an upward angle. 13 yards x 3 is a close approximation of POI at 39 yards. JMO

    Wayne
     
  16. tanda1

    tanda1 Active Member

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    Thanks all.
     
  17. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    If the ultimate goal is that you want your gun to shoot the center of the pattern X inches higher than point of aim at YY yards, you really need to shoot some patterns off a bench rest at YY yards and make sure that's what your gun really does.

    Although I like the idea of patterning at 13 yards for a lot of reasons, trying to extrapolate your 13 yard results for what is going to happen at 40 yards is like sighting in your deer rifle at 25 yards, extrapolating the trajectory, and assuming it'll be "dead on" at 100 yards.

    And yes, if you are patterning at 13 yards, an unsingle will pattern lower than a top single, even if they both ultimately have the same POI downrange.

    Just like the bottom barrel of an over/under will pattern to a lower point of impact at 13 yards than the top barrel will. That's a fact and I have photos (somewhere) to prove it.
     
  18. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    It depends how the lower and upper barrel are set up and that is the fact. Where do some of you get your so called expertise?? Is Cracker Jack still putting in their boxes???

    Don
     
  19. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    This is a very entertaining thread. It's one of those subjects where if someone doesn't have the intellect to easily understand it, you might as well be talking to a wall.

    -Gary
     
  20. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    What big don said is correct. (damn IPad)

    I was considering trying to compare O/U with STB and UNS, but the factors that determine POI in any gun is barrel straightness or bends, rib height taper, chamber to muzzle.

    In the case of an O/U, both barrels can be set up to shoot straight or top barrel straight, bottom higher, or just the reverse. Depends on manufacturers intent. Live bird guns are not set up the same as US trap.

    Then you place the same gun in different shooters hands and get different results.

    Place gun on a rest and get a true reading.
     
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