1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

How far to Pattern

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Browning Man, Jan 22, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Browning Man

    Browning Man TS Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    293
    How many yards is it good to pattern a gun?
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,856
    Traditionally, people pattern for singles at 34 yards, for long-yardage handicap, 40 (or more). But anything beyond about 40 looks so bad you will begin to doubt your gun and that can't be worth it.

    Neil
     
  3. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    3,707
    It also depends on what you want to learn.
     
  4. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,358
    Location:
    Nashville Tn
    I don't like to pattern for the above reasons. They look bad when viewed in two dimensions. I will shoot at 13 yards for POI, but generally pattern on the target. If my loads and choke consistently turn a solid into a vapor on singles, and get smoke at dubs and the back fence, I am happy. YMMV
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    Shooting Coach- With your technique, how is it possible to distinguish if a couple of weak hits were due to the load or a shooting error?

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. Browning Man

    Browning Man TS Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    293
    I am wanting to find my POI, so shoot from 13 yards?
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,856
    Browningman, the link above is a place to start.

    Neil
     
  8. ronbo142

    ronbo142 TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    1,038
    I want to see my pattern at 16 yrds for my skeet gun, looking for POI in relation to where my eyes are focused.

    Ronbo
     
  9. Illini bird

    Illini bird TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    54
    Browning Man I have not done this , but just last week the man who did my chokes with my barrel said he shoots at the same pattern "Marked" board 6 times, Draws two lines thru the center of the shot pattern . He than can see where he is shooting at 40 yards and the pattern,in one step. He should know, his stable of shooters are some of the best.
     
  10. Pocatello

    Pocatello Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,547
    Neil, I got a new gun last week, and patterned it at 13 yards. It shot about one inch left and eight inches high, same place both shots. That seemed extremely high to me, so I moved the comb a little right and down about 1/8", then shot some targets with it. It did OK there, with the missed targets clearly due to shooter error. I have not gone back to check POI at 13 yards, but what does your experience say is too high? By the way, it's an Alfermann if that makes any difference.
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,856
    illini bird, thanks for the email. I haven't answered yet, but will do so here.

    There are two ways of getting that POI; each has its advantage(s).

    1. Up close, one shot at each cross: Here you can not only get a good idea of where it shoots, but also have a check on your skill at shooting to the same place. It may be you put every shot in the same relative position - a rare feat, but possible. If you are shooting offhand, I doubt you will be satisfied with the result; there will be some here, some there. But off a bench almost all will be at least close to the same. with maybe the odd shot thrown away but easily discarded as not relevant to the task at hand. Six shots at the same aim-point up close makes no sense; it's easier to do it the other way, with nine (or 6 with 24-inch-wide paper) crosses to a sheet and a box of shells shot over two days of testing.

    2. At forty yards it's too hard to tell the pattern center with single shots, so you're pretty much committed to more at each target. You lose the information about your own skill, but if you are confident of it, little is sacrificed. And you will get the POI at distance, which you have to calculate at 13 yards, but it can be done in your head to the precision required.

    One possible quibble with the multi-shot technique is that it _may_ carry with it some kind of "law of averages" speculation (which is not necessary.) The idea here is that a shot to the left will be "balanced" by an equal error to the right. There's no reason to think this is true; see link above.

    What's not known is what the effect of a "pulled shot" will be in finding the center of the pattern. The thing is, you can't "omit" that shot as you can up close.

    I do my work with the Shotgun-Insight patterning program with a bench rest. It calculates its pattern center as the mid-point of all the pellets and I find that the results are quite repeatable and the bad ones I can predict when I pull the trigger. Most calculated pattern centers are within an inch or two, which is plenty close enough.

    Another advantage of close is the lessened effect of a sidewind. It takes little more than a breath of a breeze to move the pattern two or three inches at forty yards and it'll be a lot less (but still apparent) when you do your testing at 13 yards.

    Ideally, one would use both systems: a dozen-plus shots up close, a check at 40 yards. I personally find that my predictions obtained at 13 yards are so accurate when generalized to extended distances that I don't need that second formal check (and I do it anyway with Shotgun-Insight) but may take it up as a habit just to see how it works.

    Neil
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,856
    Pocatello, eight inches is very high. Though some here measure this stuff to a fraction of an inch, I just group them into general categories:

    1. Low and you might as well quit there until you fix it except for the second shot in dubles which can be as much as an inch low.

    2. Pretty flat, this is between at the mark and an inch high, maybe an inch and a half high.

    3. Somewhat high, which starts at one and a half and goes up to three inches.

    4. High - over three, less than six

    5. Too high, which includes your first result. That's for my kind of shooting but I plan to explore some in that area once my adjustable-rib Perazzi come in. There may be something there; I've just never had a gun so far which will shoot there without seeing so much rib I feel disoriented looking down it.

    Based on a couple of things I've learned from reading zzt's ideas, I plan to go into the 16 vs. Handicap POI math once again. The only thing holding me back is uncertainly about the future of this site. If it's going to be shut down then there's no point in putting any effort into anything posted here. I lost an incredible amount of work in the last disk crash and I'm not willing to go through that again.

    Neil
     
  13. Browning Man

    Browning Man TS Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    293
    I am wanting to find my POI, so shoot from 13 yards?
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,856
    Browningman, the link above is a place to start.

    Neil
     
  15. ronbo142

    ronbo142 TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    1,038
    I want to see my pattern at 16 yrds for my skeet gun, looking for POI in relation to where my eyes are focused.

    Ronbo
     
  16. Illini bird

    Illini bird TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    54
    Browning Man I have not done this , but just last week the man who did my chokes with my barrel said he shoots at the same pattern "Marked" board 6 times, Draws two lines thru the center of the shot pattern . He than can see where he is shooting at 40 yards and the pattern,in one step. He should know, his stable of shooters are some of the best.
     
  17. Pocatello

    Pocatello Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,547
    Neil, I got a new gun last week, and patterned it at 13 yards. It shot about one inch left and eight inches high, same place both shots. That seemed extremely high to me, so I moved the comb a little right and down about 1/8", then shot some targets with it. It did OK there, with the missed targets clearly due to shooter error. I have not gone back to check POI at 13 yards, but what does your experience say is too high? By the way, it's an Alfermann if that makes any difference.
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,856
    illini bird, thanks for the email. I haven't answered yet, but will do so here.

    There are two ways of getting that POI; each has its advantage(s).

    1. Up close, one shot at each cross: Here you can not only get a good idea of where it shoots, but also have a check on your skill at shooting to the same place. It may be you put every shot in the same relative position - a rare feat, but possible. If you are shooting offhand, I doubt you will be satisfied with the result; there will be some here, some there. But off a bench almost all will be at least close to the same. with maybe the odd shot thrown away but easily discarded as not relevant to the task at hand. Six shots at the same aim-point up close makes no sense; it's easier to do it the other way, with nine (or 6 with 24-inch-wide paper) crosses to a sheet and a box of shells shot over two days of testing.

    2. At forty yards it's too hard to tell the pattern center with single shots, so you're pretty much committed to more at each target. You lose the information about your own skill, but if you are confident of it, little is sacrificed. And you will get the POI at distance, which you have to calculate at 13 yards, but it can be done in your head to the precision required.

    One possible quibble with the multi-shot technique is that it _may_ carry with it some kind of "law of averages" speculation (which is not necessary.) The idea here is that a shot to the left will be "balanced" by an equal error to the right. There's no reason to think this is true; see link above.

    What's not known is what the effect of a "pulled shot" will be in finding the center of the pattern. The thing is, you can't "omit" that shot as you can up close.

    I do my work with the Shotgun-Insight patterning program with a bench rest. It calculates its pattern center as the mid-point of all the pellets and I find that the results are quite repeatable and the bad ones I can predict when I pull the trigger. Most calculated pattern centers are within an inch or two, which is plenty close enough.

    Another advantage of close is the lessened effect of a sidewind. It takes little more than a breath of a breeze to move the pattern two or three inches at forty yards and it'll be a lot less (but still apparent) when you do your testing at 13 yards.

    Ideally, one would use both systems: a dozen-plus shots up close, a check at 40 yards. I personally find that my predictions obtained at 13 yards are so accurate when generalized to extended distances that I don't need that second formal check (and I do it anyway with Shotgun-Insight) but may take it up as a habit just to see how it works.

    Neil
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,856
    Pocatello, eight inches is very high. Though some here measure this stuff to a fraction of an inch, I just group them into general categories:

    1. Low and you might as well quit there until you fix it except for the second shot in dubles which can be as much as an inch low.

    2. Pretty flat, this is between at the mark and an inch high, maybe an inch and a half high.

    3. Somewhat high, which starts at one and a half and goes up to three inches.

    4. High - over three, less than six

    5. Too high, which includes your first result. That's for my kind of shooting but I plan to explore some in that area once my adjustable-rib Perazzi come in. There may be something there; I've just never had a gun so far which will shoot there without seeing so much rib I feel disoriented looking down it.

    Based on a couple of things I've learned from reading zzt's ideas, I plan to go into the 16 vs. Handicap POI math once again. The only thing holding me back is uncertainly about the future of this site. If it's going to be shut down then there's no point in putting any effort into anything posted here. I lost an incredible amount of work in the last disk crash and I'm not willing to go through that again.

    Neil
     
  20. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    3,707
    Neil,

    Saturday, after a rather unflattering 27 hc round, a friend, 97+ singles average, decided he needed to check his POI. We went to the patterning board and I put the crosses on the cardboard and stepped off 13 yards. His first shot was about 4 inches high between 10 and 11 o'clock. I thought he had pulled the shot so I had him shoot 2 more. He put them both right through the same hole. His comb doesn't adjust laterally. He then repeated this same result on other crosses. Comments?

    Also, I am sure that this site will be around for quite a awhile.

    JT
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Search tags for this page

neil winston how to pattern a shotgun

,

shotgun insight patterning program