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HOW did the 1250 Fps shell get allowed?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Dr.Longshot, Aug 29, 2009.

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  1. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Even by SAAMI specifications 1 1/8th ounce loads 1250 Fps are 3 1/4 dram loads.

    Get the speed back to 1200 Fps 1 1/8th Ounce of shot, if a shooter wants to penalize himself with a 7/8s ounce load at 1200 Fps so be it.

    But all loads would have a spec of 1200 Fps.

    3 Dram 1200 Fps 1 1/8th w/1200Fps maximum speed on any shell.

    Shell manufacturers want to sell shells that satisfy ATA specs and they will make them and sell them and save some money on powder.

    The 2009-10 target year is the last year you can shoot 1250 Fps shells period.

    Shell maximum speed will be 1200 Fps.



    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  2. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    I agree that it is a good idea but lotsaluck in trying to get it changed. Even before 1990 the ammo manufacturers were all making hot loads and once the ball started rolling no one could stop it.
     
  3. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    An ATA rule change to 1200 Fps would do it by it's self.

    My best scores were shot with 2 3/4 dram loads w/8s from the 27 yard line and a 100 straight from the 24 in 1970. Shooting a Model 12 Solid Rib Gun. in Springfield Ohio on a July 4th weekend.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  4. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Ihad the impression that it was a 5% fudge factor, they just crowded the envelope.

    HM
     
  5. motordoctor

    motordoctor Shoji Tabuchi in Branson

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    are they changing the rule????
     
  6. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    Gary, it's all about money. The easier the target the more people you bring into the sport. You remember in the mid 90's when they went back to the 3 hole target, and the following year ATA membership fell off a few thousand.
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Gary,

    1250 PFS loads are 3-dram and 3 1/4 dram loads too. Both fit the definition. I've written that here dozens of times, as has Pat, as have many others. Didn't you get the memo?

    Neil
     
  8. Dennis DeVault

    Dennis DeVault Well-Known Member

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    I may be making a wrong statement here, but at one time I read an ATA rule that allowed a 3 dram load to be + 10%. If 10% overage is allowed then a shell that has a speed of 1220 FPS would be a legal load. This is a question that Neil Winston may be able to answer.

    Dennis
     
  9. Michael Jobe

    Michael Jobe TS Member

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    The black Winchester AA handicap loads date back to the 70s, and from what I've heard are as heavy as any 1 1/8 oz load that's ever been made for trap.

    Why are there even velocity rules in trap? Shot charge rarely gets checked/enforced, and velocity is even more difficult to police.

    ~Michael
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    No, Dennis, that's what everyone thought in - say - 1995 but it was never true.

    The nominal speed for a 3-dram shell - 1/8 oz.- according to SAAMI's voluntary standards is 1200 fps plus or minus 90 feet per second. That's for an "average," not a single shell. For whole box, a whole case, a whole warehouse full of cases, it's 1110 to 1290 fps.

    The "plus" is for shot weight. It's three percent for target loads.

    Neil

    Please, please , no one tell me the "rule used to be 1200 fps." It didn't. Tami at the Trapshooting Hall of Fame researched it back to the 60's. It was thee-dram. Not 1200 fps.
     
  11. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Dennis,

    Plus 10% on a 3 dram load would = 1320 fps. 1200 + 120 = 1320. HMB
     
  12. Rvator97

    Rvator97 TS Member

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    There should be no rule regarding speed of loads.... if someone wants to get the crap beat out of them with 1400fps loads, let em....I believe that faster speeds are NOT an advantage and they WILL eventually have a detrimental effect on scores... Walt
     
  13. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Leave the game the way it is for Petes sake. I'm so tired of hearing people cry about the flawed game because Leo and the gang are shooting our pants off. They are good and thats all there is to it. It so sounds like a bunch of jealousy. It reminds me of a couple of kindergarden kids playing and one kid leaving because he wants to play by his rules so he can win. Get good yourself or shut up. Hell it gives me something to go after and i've got so far to go. There is always i mean ALWAYS going to be BIG DOGS no matter what you do. The people that should be complaining are the Big Dogs because they are getting bored.----Matt
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    SAAMI specifications for a three dram load are are not very tight. If I tested five loads with my chronograph and got the following velocities: 1300, 1310, 1305, 1300, 1310 ft/sec, the shells would fall well withing the factory specifications for a three dram load. The factory measures velocity with an induction chronograph and that will give lower velocities than my light chronograph.

    If a factory loaded one type of shell and put half of them in boxes labeled 2 3/4 dram and the other half in boxes labeled 3 dram, they would be within SAMMI specifications. I am convinced that one factory actually did that.

    Michael- Based entirely from the whack I got on my cheek, I believe the very first AA Silver Bullets were hotter than the older black Winchester handicap loads. Winchester backed off on the powder in the Silver Bullets after the first year they were introduced.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    For years from 1968 when I started shooting registered 3 dram was the limit that equalled 1200 Fps, AAs-Rem-Fed Papers all said 3 dram on the box, Blue
    Peters shells said 3 dram, now the boxes say MAX DRAM EQUIV. What is Max Dram?

    My curiousity got piqued so I went down to the basement and got out some target boxes.Winchester Light Target Load 2 3/4 dram equiv. AA128, Federal Top Gun 3 Dram Equiv 1200 Fps 1 1/8th oz #8s TG12 7.5, Federal Game Load 12ga 2 3/4 inches, 1 oz 7 1/2s 1290 Fps 3-!/4 Dram equiv.H121 7.5, Estates 3 shells
    one marked 3-1 7.5 3 dram 1 Oz 7 1/2s, another marked 3 1/4 Dram 1 Oz 8s another Marked Max Dram 1 1/8th oz 7 1/2s Max Dram, Federal Gold Medal Premium Target 7 1/2s Handicap Max dram. Remington Nitro 27 2 3/4- 7 1/2s 1235Fps, The original designation for 1 1/8th oz load @1220 Fps was 3 1/4 dram, Fed 1 1/4 oz loads were marked 3 1/4 Dram Pigeon loads.

    It is now all water under the bridge, what we need to do is designate 1200 Fps
    3 dram loads 1 1/8th Oz shot 7 1/2s max size. As now designated on Federal and Winchester Shells, Remingtom Light Hdcps ?

    Traps shall be set to throw a 27 Degree angle from a straight line through post #3 at a distance of 50 yards.

    Which is equal to a 3 hole target.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  16. EuroJoe

    EuroJoe TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    I think speed will correct more errors than shot charge, what do tou think?
     
  17. tcr1146

    tcr1146 Well-Known Member

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    Got it Gary! I evened noted your degree of angle on your rule change! Thanks, Tom Rhoads
     
  18. winchesterm12

    winchesterm12 TS Member

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    There is no velocity limit in sporting. 32 gram or 1-1/8 oz max shot charge 7-1/2 max shot size are the only shell limits
     
  19. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Slick13, I shot alot of the black winchesters and the orange handicap after the blacks were stopped and I don't believe they were any stronger than todays vintage. I still have both of the old colored ones and sometime I might compare. But the hardest thumper that I recall was the original 2nd generation winchesters.

    Dr. Longshot, just for your info, 3 1/4 dram 1 1/8 were 1235fps. The 1 1/4 were 1255 fps.
     
  20. Skutch

    Skutch TS Member

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    Why do you care about your competitors' shotshells velocity/speed.

    From a performance standpoint, international bunker/olympic trap has never controled speed, only shot charge. when the charge limit was lowered from 1 1/4 progressively to the current 24 grams(approx. 7/8 oz.) the scores rose.

    We are basing the limitiation on an arcane black powder based rule aimed at safety not speed.

    It's a ridiculous and outmoded rule. Abandome it!!!
     
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