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How can I duplicate the STS Low recoil 1 1/8?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by phirel, Sep 2, 2007.

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  1. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    r44u77- For a light load, you are best served by a faster burning powder. Green Dot is excellent for heavier handicap loads but for the light loads you are seeking, American Select would be my choice.

    Remember, every load published in a reloading book is safe, but it might not be good.

    Pat Ireland
     
  2. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    16.5gr of PROMO or Red Dot, Blue Duster wad, Fiocchi or Remington 209 primer. any Remington hull. This load clocks 1090fps at 5 ft out of a 33" .740 Ljutic barrel. pressure is supposed to be around 8000psi.
    --- Chip King ---
     
  3. bling 27

    bling 27 Member

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    Remington STS hull, rem209p primer,rem fig 8 wad,14.9gr of Titegroup powder. 1090 fps / 8200psi You can keep all the components the same and drop 16.0 gr of Titegroup for 1145fps/9100psi,drop 17.1gr of Titegroup for 1200fps/10000psi, and 18.5gr of Titegroup will get you 1255fps/11500psi.
     
  4. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    I was loading these for my wife. Worked quite well. She now shoots a Browning gold auto and does not have any recoil issues. She now shoots estate 3 dram 1 1/8. here are the loads she started on with the 870 1 1/8oz - STS shell CCI209 primer FIG8 wad Hodgdon Clays 16.8g = 1090 fps. To conserve shot and powder i tried these 1oz- STS shell CCI209 primer TGT12 wad 15.4g clays= 1125fps. I never cronograph the loads but I have shot a lot of rounds with them in my XT they are light. These will not cycle the browning gold. Remington also has their managed recoil loads with 7/8 oz shot.
     
  5. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    PerazziBigBore- I am just too much of a purest in selecting reloading components. Red Dot =(Promo) was designed for lighter loads. Green Dot was designed for 1 1/8 oz loads at 1200 + Ft/sec. I know that either powder will preform well beyond their design concept, but I hold to the original intent of the powders. Perhaps it just gives me a little more confidence in my reloads. I will admit that the birds cannot tell the difference.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    PBB, there is no "longer time curve" for Green Dot when compared to Red Dot. You have, I'm afraid, come to believe what all those gun scribes write and that's a big mistake.

    [​IMG]

    Neil
     
  8. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    Check the STS box. The fps rating is 1145fps. So it is not that slow. Fred
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, MIke. Kevin showed you time curves as produced by his instruments, by which I mean things that looked about the same as the one I provided above, and they showed that the burning curves of slower powders collapse the wad a slower rate?

    Well, you did look at my time trace at the bottom of the graph, didn't you? Of course, they don't say anything at all about wad collapse, but you could blow the first 2/10,000 second into the whole graph in your mind and say that Green Dot reaches it's peak about 50% slower than Red Dot. But as you can see, it would be a complete misrepresentation of the data. Surely no one is saying that a 10,000 of a second makes any difference at all, I hope.

    My instruments are as required by SAAMI: proper test barrel, 167A transducer from PCB, and I use Kistler electronics to condition the signal. What my graph shows is what happens. How can I be so sure? Well, in following the idea that you need two measurements obtained by different means to be certain, I also track, now and again the force exerted by the barrel which is in fact in my lab a ballistic pendulum. The force tracings are a duplicate of the pressure tracings in their timing and absolute magnitudes, which is _proof_ that what my 167A says is going on is factual.

    I hope you will call Kevin and alert him to this problem - and it's a huge problem - so he can post his graphs and tell us where they came from and what they mean. Until then, MIke, I'm not buying word one of it.

    Neil
     
  10. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    how about this
     
  11. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    other low presure low velocity recipes. Also the STS12LR from remington are listed on box as 1100 fps. you do not see these to often. I had to order their STS managed recoil 7/8 oz loads for my wife before reloading my own
     
  12. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Mike- Like you, I began reloading when 18 grains of Red Dot was the norm and Green Dot served for the heavier loads, at least for those of us that did not use Alcan. I would think the data that Kevin showed you is accurate, but I suspect the data may have been interpreted with a bias toward selling his wads.

    The pressure graph presented by Neil is identical to the pressure graphs developed at the Alliant Plant. The two sets of data were derived independently, with different equipment and they confirm each other.

    Neil did make one error when he stated that he hoped nobody believes 1-3 ten thousands of a second makes a difference in felt recoil. Sorry, Neil, but many believe they can shoot a round, walk back to the car and get another box and 30 minutes later shoot the second load and tell that it has a recoil 3/10,000 of a second faster than the shell they shot 30 minutes ago. I would suppose these same shooters can distinguish between a target traveling at 42.0000 MPH and 42.0003 MPH and adjust there lead accordingly. I am envious of them. Without my radar gun, I can not even tell the difference between 41 MPH and 42 MPH targets.

    Pat Ireland
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Mike, I've seen some wad effects on pressure. Ron Baker tested some Clays-powered Estate hulls. With 1 1/8 oz. of shot, the wads intended for tapered hulls worked fine, but with less shot they failed.

    But still, the test of patterns is patterns, not pressure. And the assertion of the effect of pressure on recoil has to explain how that spike right at the start of the burn can be discriminated by a shooter when:

    1. The time course is so very short, and

    2. Gun movement is less than 1/100 inch when all this is happening

    Neil
     
  14. Pull & Mark

    Pull & Mark Well-Known Member

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    r44u77,I think that you may want to look into Win. new powder called AA Lite. It is put out by Hodgdon powders. So you can find it on there web site. Hodgdon.com is there site. You can also talk to a tech directly to answer any problems or ?'s you have. You can load very lite loads from 7/8, l oz., to l & 1/8 loads in weight to speeds from 1150 down to about 950 fps with the differents oz lead loads. Hodgdon is very good about testing all types of primers, wads combo's as well. Good Luck. Break-em all. Jeff
     
  15. Didreckson

    Didreckson Active Member

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    I have no data or a dog in this debate. I can say from personal experience, the perceived recoil with Green Dot is significantly less than Clays, Red Dot or 700X. I have settled on 700X for all my reloading, since it had a large range of speeds,and as I am getting comfortable with the thought, reducing my loads from 1 oz. down to 7/8. 700X just seemed to fill the bill across a large range of loads.

    When I first started shooting a couple of years ago, I thought bigger and faster was the answer, thus a can of Green Dot, 1-1/8 loads blazing out at 1250 or possibly a tad bit hotter. Found out it was the dummy holding the shotgun that mattered more than what was in the hull.
     
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