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How about some feed back 2

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by crusha, Aug 2, 2008.

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  1. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    hwg...
     
  2. Gunnerandbabe

    Gunnerandbabe TS Member

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    I like it the way it is.
     
  3. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Jerry- Try this. Go to the back of Trap and Field and pick one State in each zone. Go through the handicap scores listed as winners in the States you select and write down the yardage of the winners. Do not look at State Shoots or Satellite Grands. These are not typical shoots.

    When I have done this, and I do it several times each year, it appears sometimes as if the 20-24 yard shooters are dominating the game. If we are considering attracting and retaining new shooters, we need to look at what is happening at the one to four trap clubs that attract 20-40 shooters. This is where the new shooters shoot.

    Pat Ireland

    PS- I just opened the last Trap and Field to Tennessee- The short yardage shooters dominated the reported shoots.
     
  4. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Pat

    Both you and Neil have the same response when presented with data that says something in the handicap system is wrong. Both of you grab a small segment of data that supports your view then present it as if it proves your point.


    In this case my view is to look at the handicap averages for each year and see how well short and mid-yardage shooters are doing over time. Trap and Field has been tabulating and presenting that data forever. One would think with an easier target, voice releases, Pat Traps, and all the other shooting improvements non-27yard shooters would be doing as well or better than before.


    That is simply not the case.


    I’ve presented the information and ask how it’s possible to have the handicap averages that were dominated by non-27 yard shooters for example in 1981 where 64 out of the top 100 were non-27 yard shooters while in 2007 there were only 7, if the handicap system is not screwed up.


    Instead of addressing the data you suggest looking at the winners listed at small shoots in Trap and Field magazine as proof that short and mid-yardage shooters are still dominating the handicaps.


    I'm sorry but I don't think your approach indicates anything about the current state of the handicap system. It's too narrowly focused.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  5. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    Pat, you have no idea of how many accomplished 27 yard shooters there were at the events you looked at. It is possible there weren't any or if there were some they may be over-handicapped and just refusing reductions and on an ego trip. You have to look at shoots that have decent purses because that is where you will find the best 27 yard shooters. JRM
     
  6. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Looks like I deleted the original post when I was making a correction. Here is the original post.


    The problem with people who dismiss every suggestion regarding the current state of the handicap system here is they don’t have a vested interest making any type of change to the system if that change places their judgment regarding their vote to change to a 2-hole target in doubt.


    Once the change was made there was no attempt to understand what the unintended consequences of the change were and to correct them. Secure in their victory and happy with the knowledge they had successfully dumb down the sport they scattered back to their home states and did nothing to understand the significance of their change.


    13 years later we have a sport where the one event (handicap) that is supposed to place all shooters on equal footing is so out of balance we may not be retaining new shooters. The 2-hole change was a gift to both the experienced and gifted shooter. The gifted shooters have dominated the sport like never before and still the people in charge can’t figure out why.


    How hard can it be to understand when you make a target easier to hit for everyone you are giving a tremendous advantage to those that were really good at hitting a tougher target.


    How hard can it be to understand that when you make a target easier to hit for everyone and don’t modify the earned yardage table the shooters that had to spent time and effort honing their shooting skills just to break a 96 now found it much easier.


    Once it became much easier they kept getting yardage until they stalled and possibly quit. This is easily verified by looking at the high handicap averages listed in the average book. Once the short and mid-yardage shooters were the majority listed.


    Now they are an anomaly.


    Now we have a gifted shooter proposing changes to help save the sport. My advice is to Phil is included changes to the earned yardage table if you haven’t already done so and for everyone else give Phil your support because if you’re looking help with anyone associated with past mistakes it’s not coming.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  7. darwinbene

    darwinbene Member

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    Jerry H: when you inserted the info about a #2 hole for targets, what is the speed of the target. I didn't shoot when the tagets were set according to a number setting. I did recall a post about setting targets according to a #2 or #3 setting. Maybe I will search for the post and read it. With the auto traps today how does all this relate? At our local club everything is set either by the 50 yd stake or a radar gun. I would rather shoot target according to a radar gun than setting to the 50 yd stake. Hopefully all 50 yd stakes are close to the measurement.

    Thanks, Darwin
     
  8. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    WTF! The majority of the shooters can't hit the 2 hole targets. This 2 hole 3 hole debate is just nonsense.
     
  9. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Jerry


    The averages I'm referring to are those listed the top 100 averages for the nation which are listed in the average book. I was not talking about high handicap averages in a particular state.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  10. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Jerry H.- One major difference in our view points is that you are considering data from the top 100 handicap shooters. I am much more concerned with the lower 25,000 handicap shooters. The top 10,000 handicap shooters are established and can take care of themselves.

    perga1- I do not agree that shoots with large purses is the place to get an overview about problems with our growth and retention of new shooters. The small shoots with 10-35 entries is where I see these shooters. Collectively, these small shoots throw more targets than the larger shoots.

    Also, I see many new shooters shooting only singles targets. After a few shoots they venture into handicap and after a few years, some take up doubles.

    Pat Ireland
     
  11. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    Pat, that isn't what I said. You stated in your first post "Do not look at State Shoots or Satellite Grands." and then proceeded to make the assumption that "These are not typical shoots.", and therefore should be discounted when making a comparison between the likely yardage winners at "SHOOTS". You then said "it appears sometimes as if the 20-24 yard shooters are dominating the game."
    I responded: "Pat, you have no idea of how many accomplished 27 yard shooters there were at the events you looked at." Do you know if even one 27 yard shooter competed in the shoots you checked or their scores and abilities?
    You concluded your post with: "

    "PS- I just opened the last Trap and Field to Tennessee- The short yardage shooters dominated the reported shoots."
    Were there any proficient 27 yarders at the Tennessee shoots you looked at? What was the percentage of 27 yarders to short yardage dominant shooters? Your conclusion that "it appears sometimes as if the 20-24 yard shooters are dominating the game." needs a lot more validation. BTW, you never mentioned anything about member retention in your post but I am willing to guess that it isn't the short yardage shooters who are leaving the game as long as they are winning their share of events. JRM
     
  12. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    Just look at the top scores for most any major state shoot. Or shoots that have 200 or more shooters and see who shoots the top scores.

    In the Western states over 80% of all handicaps are won by 27 yard shooters. I am not talking about large shoots. But shoots that have 25 to 100 shooters.

    Talk to almost any great shooter and they will state the system needs reworking. I personally have talked a great number of the top shooters. All believe the system is in their favor. Some like it that way. But most would
    like to see revision. (and some even fear the "dreaded sandbagger", but they are a very very few).

    Jerry is right. Everytime the question comes up the ATA officers or BoD members come up with some figures to justify their reluctance to make changes. (That is except to make to sport easier. For whom?? Themselves??).

    Darwinbene - You state you rather shoot targets set with a radar gun over the stake. If the stakes are correctly set that should not be the case. But
    a lot of people use radar guns. The problem is many do not know how to use them correctly. In order to determine the correct speed you need a marked on at least one trap that is set level to the 16 yard line at the minimum 49 yard marker. Then reading should be taken for the radar gun. But it is also import to set the gun in exactly the same position on each field. Whether it is set on the hour or someother level method. - Jim
     
  13. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Could it be the officers and BOD are also getting too old for a more challenging target and that's why they vehemently resist any change?

    For the record, I'm still in favor of either increased yardage, more difficult yardage increases, mandatory 1oz. maximum handicap loads or a combination. Those changes will target the very group that made the Handicap system a farce without much effect on the majority!!
     
  14. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Seems like those with little or no ability always want to change the rules to suit their egos.

    Curt
     
  15. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    grnberetcj


    If your comment was directed at me then maybe we should compare shooting resumes before we continue the discussion?


    Jerry Hauser
     
  16. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Jerry, just so you know my highest 16yd. average 98.28 is .01 higher than Neils and I think I could give him a run in Handicap anytime. He'll destroy me in Doubles!!
     
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