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How About a Really Odd Handicap System?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by JBrooks, Nov 8, 2007.

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  1. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Let's say that you went to your trap club to shoot found they had put carpet runners on top of the concrete. Would you know if you were shooting from the 21 as opposed to the 22 or maybe the 24 or 25? Probably not because there is not much dufference in 1 yard. That is why people shoot at the wrong yardage. They can't tell that the guy ahead of them forgot to move the speaker.

    However, you probaly can tell if there is a two yard difference and your scores would probably reflect a 2 yard change. So, what would be the advantages or disadvantages of just having an all odd handicap system. This means that we would only shoot from the 19, 21, 23, 25 and 27 yard lines. No more surreal 1/2 punches where you don't even change yardages. You get a punch and you move 2 yards.

    Punches and reductions would be more meaningful. Speakers would have to be moved less. Clubs could sell advertising on the leftover even numbered squares. What a deal!
     
  2. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    If 50% of shooters are on even numbers now and 50% are on odd, all the even number shooters would move to an odd number. This means you would have most squad with all 5 members being all on the same number. It's a math thing.
     
  3. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    Wouldn't it be kind'a tuff to take a 2 yard punch for high score out of 15 shooters in the event? Or would you propose just eliminating yardage punches at shoots of less than 500 shooters, that don't seem quite right either?

    Now----minimum 2 yd reductions,----------~?

    John C. Saubak
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    JB, you are willing to punch people two yards to reduce the movement of speakers?

    As far as forgetting to move the speaker, we move them ourselves. Squad policy. It's the only way to do it; why should the guy ahead of me move the speaker for me?

    Neil
     
  5. skeeter

    skeeter TS Member

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    It's like the toilet seat. I put it up. You put it down. Works fine.
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    skeeter- I always put the toilet seat back down. My Mother insisted on that. Neil- I always move the speaker, if necessary, for the next shooter. I believe my Mother would would agree that it is the polite thing to do. I will not wear a hat inside any building and I will not talk on my cell phone in a store or restaurant. I learned very early that good manners extend well beyond the dinner table.

    So, if you shoot with me, I will move your speaker.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Pat, are you telling me that polite people actually _lift_ the toilet seat? That's amazing.

    Neil
     
  8. Wilma Harris

    Wilma Harris TS Member

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    Seldom will another person place a speaker for you where you want it. Let the next shooter move his/her own speaker. Everyone has plenty of time while someone is walking from 5 to 1 and way too much time if the shooter leaving 5 is delayed by trying to put that speaker where the next shooter might want it.
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Excellent point Neil. In this public forum, I do not wish to make any confessions about possible errors I may have made in the past.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Neil,

    I figure there are two types of shooters. The first want every punch they can get so that they can compete from the 27. These guys view punches as a positive. The second want every reduction they can get, they view punches as a negative. So, the guy that want the punches get a whole 2 yards when they do well. The guys that want the reductions get a whole 2 yards when they demonstarte their inability to compete at the yardage they are at. Whats not to like?

    Think of moving the speakers line as something like a streamer. I know it was cheap, but in the past it is a proven performer almost as good as who should pick up the shells.
     
  11. motrap

    motrap Member

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    I have shot basically with the same squad for years .....we are all very close friends ......... the shooter to my left was a different yardage for years (we both went up and back but always stayed at least one yard different) ........ when speakers began being used (yes, that's how long we have been shooting together) we had some transition time concerning the moving of speakers for others.

    After figuring that there must be an optimum placement (we both shoot right handed) ......... me being friendly, polite and a gentleman, I started moving the speaker ......... I noticed that no matter where or how I placed the speaker, she always re-moved it "some" ........ I decided to rethink this process ..........

    First, I decided that when I had to move from 5 to 1 it was silly for me to waste "any" time moving the speaker, and never moved it ........ and second, when she was moving from 5 to 1 that I may as well save her a "little" time and always moved it ........ (with rare exception, I never re-place the speaker for my self if it is on my yardage, no matter where or how it is placed) (I do require that it is to the left of center so my voice is not blocked by my stock, but 99% it is there)

    Then I started trying to place the speaker "exactly" (I'm talking within "mm" and "%" of angles) ........... my best analysis (visually) is that the "perfect" placement (for her) is on the left side, at an angle of 21 1/2%, with the far left corner hanging off the concrete about 1", and the near left corner across the yard marker about 3/4", and the speaker head angled upward at 67 1/2% (this often cannot be accomplished without tools) ......

    This solved the problem ......... no, I never, ever, was able to place the speaker without her re-placing it ........ sometimes when I was certain I had it just perfectly correct, I would notice her moving it back 1/2", and then re-moving it the 1/2" forward ............... what I mean by solving the problem, is that I was so consumed with trying to move the speaker, completely to her satisfaction (just once), that my shooting went in the crapper ....... now that my reduction put me on the same yardage with her, it is the guy's problem who now has to move the speaker for me (I don't ever touch them.)
     
  12. EXFDX

    EXFDX Member

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    Personally I appreciate someone moving the speaker for me, and as a courtesy and also as reinforcement, I never move it when I get to the next station. I have bad wheels and they're getting worse so, believe me, ANY step saved is a good one.

    Also I don't move it as an on-going strategy to try to prevent anything extraneous from getting into my head while I'm shooting. For me at least, getting that speaker base to the exACTly right spot takes my mind off the next bird. Part of me is going to be wondering if it's in a good place to hear the call. That's why I shoot fixed chokes, I only have one color of shooting glasses (vermillion), and also why I practice in every imaginable kind of weather. I want to eliminate as many things as possible to think about other than "see the bird; shoot the bird".

    For every one of you who have moved a speaker for me, I sincerely thank you. It makes it just a bit easier to manage the pain so I can shoot longer - not only today, but hopefully further out as well.

    Steve
     
  13. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    How about a handicap system thats handicap average based.



    You shoot from your assigned yardage (no changes from todays format) but you shoot against shooters in the same same handicap average bracket.


    (Below 80%) (80-85%) (86-90%) (91-93%) (94% +) or something similar.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  14. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Jerry, what would think of a punch system based on average? Say if you averaged 90% for 8 out of your last 10 scores, it's considered that you have mastered that yardage and get to move back to see if you can master the next. Average less than 87 and you can have a reduction. Theoretically, most people at a given yardage would be averaging 87%-90% except those on their way back and those who refuse a reduction.
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    What is specifically wrong with the system of one yard increments with 1/2 yard punches? How would any of the suggested changes fix whatever some may perceive as wrong with the present system.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Pat



    Shooters who wanted to remain on the 27-yard in spite of not being able to compete would still be able to. They would stand on the 27 but compete with others with other in the same handicap average bracket.


    The problem with todays system is there is no way to properly handicap those few shooters who consistantly win handicap events and there is no way to make those shooters that want to remain on the 27 competitive.


    An averaged based handicap system addresses both of those issues.



    Jerry Hauser
     
  17. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Pat,

    Why are there half yard punches?
     
  18. hoggy

    hoggy TS Member

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    I feel it's needless but also agree with good manners. So the end result for me is to move the speaker for the guy or gal behind me. But than watch and see where they moves it to. Than I can usually place it close to where he/she likes. There is one problem with this and that's if you foget and he does too than you may have cost him a match. In fact this happened to me where the person forgot to move the speaker for me and I was shooting for a magnum so my mind was not on the speaker. I almost shot from the wrong yardage but someone else on the squad noticed and told me before I did. Don't actually remember now if I hit the magnum or not. In the end we're still responcible for shooting from our right yardages but nothing wrong with good manners. Good manners in my opinion is a form of showing respect for others.
     
  19. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    I don't see a whole lot wrong with the current Handicap system.

    John C. Saubak
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    JBrooks- We have half yard punches because if you get two of them, you get to step back one yard.

    John C. Saubak - I will list a few things that are apparently problems with the current handicap system. First, some shooters who are shooting for money earn yardage with a good score and they can't win as much money as they wish. Secondly, our current system allows a few shooters to cheat. If we changed the system they would have to figure out a new way of cheating. Most importantly, our current system does not allow for shooters who do not shoot high scores to win.

    We need a system that allows the money shooters to win more money, allows lower scores to win more trophies and keeps the few cheaters constantly thinking of new ways to cheat.

    Got any ideas?

    Pat Ireland
     
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