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Home Invasion or Arrest - question for LEO's

Discussion in 'Off Topic Threads' started by dverna, Jul 14, 2009.

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  1. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Home Invasion or Arrest - question for LEO

    I was appalled at the home invasion reported recently where a couple with 12 children in the home was murdered.

    My girlfriend has always wondered why I carry even in the house and I think this made her realize it is not such a stupid thing to do.

    The questions arose, "How would you know if the guys bashing in the front door are bad guys or the police? What would you do?"

    My answer was "How many times has an officer ever knocked on our door - never. I would shoot anyone forcibly entering my home even if they were shouting "POLICE!!!!" My rationale being I have no way of knowing if they are police. I do not do things that would warrant the police to storm my home so I would assume they are not police.

    Then next question was "What if they got the wrong address and you actually shot an officer". My answer was, I would feel terrible and probably wind up in jail or dead - but I would still shoot someone aggressively invading my home"

    Shooting someone even in self defense is a horrible thing to have to live with; but being paralyzed to the point one can become a victim is not an answer either.

    Do LEO's have any advice they can share?

    Don Verna
     
  2. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Don..

    Having retired from the Delaware State Police and having gone through a number of doors, I can advise you that you will know the difference between the police and the bad guys.

    Stay armed and stay healthy. We had an old saying in the military, "As long as there is lead in the air, we have a chance".

    FEAB9,

    Curt
     
  3. spritc

    spritc Active Member

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    One small piece of advise, ALWAYS KNOW YOUR TARGET!!!!!
     
  4. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Kolardude,

    That is exactly the problem! Easier if the guy is carrying a 30/30, or sawed off SxS shotgun or Colt SAA - highly unlikely to be an LEO. What if he has a Mossberg pump?

    Don Verna
     
  5. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    Don It happens so fast you may not even remember if the person coming through the door has a gun or a ball bat .
     
  6. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    bobdog,
    I did that once when I was young, full of piss and vinegar, and VERY VERY stupid. All I had was a S&W Model 52 loaded with wadcutters - that is how stupid I was.

    If you can run away that is always the answer. Avoid any armed conflict. I have taken some basic self defense and that is the best advice anyone can get.

    The problem is, what if they come after you? What could that couple have done to protect themselves; or do we die during a home invasion?

    Don Verna
     
  7. Auctioneer

    Auctioneer Well-Known Member

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    Here where I live the police have knocked in the wrong door. They went in an apartment and went to the bed room before this poor girl could get out of bed. They were yelling at her not to move pointing their guns at her. SHE IS SCARED SH!TLESS. Someone in the group realized they had knocked in the wrong door. The door they wanted was one floor up. It hit the paper and then we never heard about it again. They have also shot tear gas in a house and then found out it was the wrong house. The police department had to pay for the clean up. There are court orders that tell the police to knock and to say police. Then there are the no knock court order. They just knock down the door and come in. This has happened in the past 30 years. It has happened and will happen again.
     
  8. Michael Jobe

    Michael Jobe TS Member

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    Read the above pdf file. Don't worry, if the police come through your door and you shoot one of them, they're be five or six behind him who'll kill you. Then hopefully your family will get a nice settlement from the civil case.

    Living out on the country I usually have my .45 SAA on me or near by. If not, a shotgun is near by. Recently had a PA state policemen pull into my driveway while I was out mowing grass. Of course my .45 was on my hip. I walked over to see how I could help (he was having trouble finding an address). I was just waiting for him to say something about the .45, but he never did. I he had, I'd have been sure to remind him that PA is an open carry state.

    ~Michael
     
  9. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

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    Used to be the Police had to announce and give you a chance to respond before kicking the door, and it was difficult to get a night time warrant, 4th amendment and all that.

    Then came along judges who would grant no knock warrants and night time warrants way too easily. I believe that is a problem that should be addressed. No doubt it is due to the more violent nature of drug criminals in these times and the affect drugs like crack have on them. And also the new breed of Police officers who are taught from day one that going home is their most important job. I don't want to see any Police officers hurt or killed but I think it has gotten a little out of hand. We have Police now training with Military Special Forces units and in many cases equipped like Military, machine guns, helmets and masked faces etc. I think and actually know that the Military mindset rubs off and some Departments and officers end up crossing the line and view the public as the enemy. The job of Police is much much different than of a Military special forces unit.
     
  10. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    Rehearsing and planning your reaction to a home invasion is a good thing to do but there are pitfalls. You mentioned being paralized with fear as not being an option but on the other extreme charging in with guns blazing may not work out too well either.... good chance of making mistakes. How about working on a delay/retreat plan of action that will give you a little bit of time. A big dog can help with that. That is my front line of defense anyway.

    Why set yourself up for a quick draw contest in an unknown set of circumstances?
     
  11. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Its best to not go into a gun fight unarmed ... Shoot to kill, dead men cannot testify against you in court ... If its the Police your a dead man anyway from what I have seen lately ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  12. CalvinMD

    CalvinMD Well-Known Member

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    Its a catch 22 where nobody is immune...I'm sure you've seen the news of the story from last year of the small town mayor and his wife was home invaded by the police...and the police killed the couples black labs...let it be known that if its my door you're busting down then you're on your own and about to get your due
     
  13. Old Confederate

    Old Confederate TS Member

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    If the law enforcement was held liable, criminal and civil for their wrong doings there would not be any houses invaded by mistake. Why does the law enforcement people think they need to wear masks. Larry
     
  14. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Thanks to threads on The High Road and here, especially a couple by Shooting Coach, I have rethought my attitude towards home invasion. A few years ago I would have armed myself and confronted anyone entering my home.

    [This applies to home invasion at night when I would be or should be asleep]

    Now, I have my .45 with 7+1 handy, along with 3 mags with 7 shots between mattress and springs on the corner of the bed away from the only entrance to my bedroom. Phone is also handy. [No children at home, and rarely visitors overnight]

    I'll take strategic position with the door in sight, 29 rounds of 230 grain hollow points at the ready after dialing 911. My HD shotgun is a 16 gauge pump with high brass #4 duck loads, five shots. I also have a million-candle-power spotlight to ruin the eyes of any dark-adjusted intruder.

    If they make it past this, before police arrive, god help me.

    Danny
     
  15. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Over two and a half decades ago, on a hot August night, my wife and I were sitting in the living room, watching TV. The front windows and front door were wide open in an attempt to get relief from the heat.<br>
    <br>
    We heard sirens, tires squealing, and then suddenly several police cars trapped a Corvette against the curb in front of the house. The two guys in it were bailing out, but the cops intercepted them at gunpoint. After they were cuffed and stuffed, the police pulled out a bunch of bundled up dope from their car. And yes, they were armed.<br>
    <br>
    My wife asked what would we have done if the bad guys had rushed into the house. I smiled, and lifted up my S&W Model 19 I had ready.
     
  16. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Dear Danny

    God helps those who help themselves. Sounds like you have a good plan. Make sure you have a cell phone. A savvy crew will cut the phone line before they kick the door in.

    The 911 dispatcher will record your call. Don't ever forget that. Build a positive witness pool if you must dialogue with an invader. "I have a gun! Leave the house! Don't make me shoot!!" This will go a long way to make you friends in court. Better than "Come get some, punk!"

    If they take your TV, you have insurance. Don't shoot through the door at an unknown target.

    If they leave your house alive, you STILL won. :^)

    Remember that the Police are on the way, and the dispatcher will guide you on what to do when they arrive. LISTEN TO THE DISPATCHER ABOUT THE POLICE.
     
  17. bridgetoofar

    bridgetoofar TS Member

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    Great advice from armchair commandos, sidewalk attorneys and those who wear a .45 while cutting the law. Some of you guys are really out there.

    The short answer is.... shit happens.
     
  18. CalvinMD

    CalvinMD Well-Known Member

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    I might be an armchair commando, but thanks to Uncle Sams excellent training, I'll still be drawing breath the next morning at my arraignment
     
  19. birddog1964

    birddog1964 TS Member

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    Don,


    You ask for a Leo's point of view, well here it comes.First let me say this
    I think It's sad that all of the laws, bills and taxes this administration has tired to sneak or back door, It's so stupid they don't realize that they making so a honest can't buy, sell or trade a gun or ammo, the criminals will be the ones with the guns more so than now!

    Now as far as someone or the police coming through your door, well this happened to me in Erwin ,Tn about 5yrs ago. My stupid ex could not get a hold of me for about a week and called the police, I was sick and did not want to talk to her so I had my phone off. I was a sleep about 11:30am one morning and something startled me and a bout the same time as I was getting my Rugger 44 mag out of my headboard a officer popped in my bedroom door way and said police dept hold it!! Witch just out of reflexes he's lucky he's not dead. According to law they have the right to inter a dwelling to ck the welfare with out a search warren or anything and me personally I think that is bulls*#t. Well that is .02 worth.

    I love this sight it gives many different views on the same topic.

    thanks
    lee
     
  20. hunter870

    hunter870 Member

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    These discussions always seem to divide the same way.

    The "my cold dead fingers" crowd who are adamant there WILL be a battle, and woe be to the intruder - police or not - who dares enter their castle. When the question comes up as to whether they are firing on police, they don't really seem to care that it's usually a fatal move.

    Then there are the folks - sometimes also part of the first group who have no idea what the police do or why they do it, but have already made judgements based on their impressions.

    To address a few of those impressions:

    The police sometimes wear nomex or gas masks to protect themselves from gas and fire. Sometimes when officers who work undercover are pressed into service for a raid they wear a mask to hide their identity from the badguys they've bought drugs, explosives, illegal weapons, stolen property, or enslaved women and children from - but these officers would almost never be part of an entry team. They may be part of the group to enter after the entry team has secured the site so they can direct a search.

    Police train with military to the extent that they learn to use equipment and tactics designed to keep the officers AND THOSE IN THE HOUSE THEY ENTER as safe as possible. If they picked up a military attitude that those in the house are the enemy and not citizens, then they'd enter with long distance artillery, not control tactics, tasers, flashbangs and gas.

    A police entry team is going to be dressed like a police entry team. They won't look like hip-hoppers, ninjas, street people, or thugs. They won't use the word "yo". They will have lots of tactical stuff on that says POLICE all over it. As they are coming through the door they will be yelling "POLICE". The cars they park outside will say "POLICE" on them, and probably have lots of flashing lights in red and/or blue colors." Sometimes they will be alternating the words "POLICE" with "POLICIA" when they announce - and while no-knock warrant allows them to enter without announcing, they certainly are quite vocal as soon as they're through the door.

    Before they get there they'll have checked the address, conducted surveillance, had a request for a warrant reviewed through at least three or four levels before getting to a judge who will finally review it before issuing a warrant to enter. Photographs will be taken of the house and be provided at each step of the process. A supervisor on the scene who becomes unsure of having the right structure or whether the property description is accurate is tasked with calling a halt to the entry until these problems are resolved.

    If they do a dynamic entry to their own satsifaction, you're not gonna have time to react other than to do just what they tell you and make your explanations verbally.

    The third group are those who read the papers, are deeply concerned, and really want to know what to do. The best advice has already been given here. These events - however unlikely - are prepared for by thinking our way through them ahead of time. What will I look for and ask to ascertain whether it's an invasion or a police error. If I believe this is a home invasion what will be my first response? Who else in the household do I need to consider? What weapons, lights, and communications can I use? (BTW - you can't cut the wires to a cell phone). Where is a fallback position? Where is a safe room? How do I ask for help? Can I get out the back door and run away to neighbors until help arrives? Have I neighbors I know well enough to run to? In the unlikely event that I have to fight my way out, what are the tactics I can use? Where is cover and concealment in my home? How can I control the lighting to my advantage? Have I taken training in how to handle myself in a situation, or am I depending on the fact that I've had a gun for a long time? (While training enhances your chances, I don't judge on this...the best home invasion scene I ever attended was where a 90 year old homeowner canceled a badguy breaking down the front door with a 28 gauge Browning skeet gun) Do I practice?

    Who comes into my home? What do I know about them? Do I let people know I have valuable property or a safe? Do I keep drugs or allow drugs in my home? What information do I allow to go out about my security systems? Do all my family members know what to keep private about our home? All these questions have to do with how likely I am to become a target.

    It seems that these threads come up periodically. A search might show you some other comments that would help.
     
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