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Home defense gun recomendations for Caliori

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by cableguy, Jul 9, 2007.

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  1. cableguy

    cableguy TS Member

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    Below is a paste from the home defense guns thread. Calilori asked for recommendations since she considering getting one. I thought that it was worth posting a new thread. Feel free to make your own recommendations. I AM NOT doing this to toot my own horn. Lori asks a good question and is deserving of the accumulated knowledge and experience that you all have.

    Lori's original post:

    I've been thinking about getting a pistol. All I have right now is my 1100 and my XT trap. Until a year ago I had never even touched a gun in my life, but the fact is that I am a single woman who lives alone....I'm not all that big either, so I'm just curious....what do you guys suggest that I get that I can handle and will stop somebody in their tracks and not just "annoy" them?

    Responses: (edited)

    Subject: Home defense gun ?
    From: cableguy
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    Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2007 - 10:22 PM CT
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    Lori, Handguns, like shotguns, have to be a good fit. Go to a good gun shop and try different models for fit. Go to a hand gun range and shoot a few. When you finally decide on what fits best. Shoot it a lot. Until it becomes second nature. There are courses on home defense or make friends with a police officer. Learn about defending yourself at home. Get a Concealed Weapons Permit and carry it. Do not just go buy something and keep it next to the bed without ever learning how to use it. Do not just go buy something because someone like me recommends it. All good. Shawn


    Subject: Home defense gun ?
    From: Phil E
    Email:
    Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2007 - 08:15 PM CT
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    Lori: Cableguy (Shawn) gives great advice. Hands-on is the way to find what you like, and what fits you, and only you will be able to decide what handgun fits your hand & needs. I'll bet there's a nearby gun club or private firearms academy that offers regular classes, either for women or/and for beginners. Start thinking about self-defense mindset, willingness to kill to protect yourself and yours. "Me and mine will survive." Buy your gun when you're getting comfortable with this. I'll suggest a small or middle-size Smith & Wesson .38 Special revolver or a 9mm semi-auto pistol. In auto's, the 9mm Springfield XD, 9mm Glock 17 and 19, 9mm Sig P226, 9mm H&K USP, and 9mm S&W M&P would merit trying out. Local gunshops will give tons of bad advice, but it's worth going to them all because you'll be able to handle, ask, listen, take notes, then discuss this all with a trusted shooter friend. I totally agree with Shawn's advice that no matter what you buy, shoot it a lot, and if it's a semi-auto practice "stoppage drills," until you're as comfortable and intimate with it as you are with driving your car. The women who go through our beginner's class are begging for more. Once they find a gun that "fits" them, and have some success shooting it, they love shooting. Many seem to gravitate toward the Glock 19 and Springfield XD. The longslide 9mm Glock 34 is also popular with some. Most prefer the semi-auto's, and those who don't are usually those who don't have the hand/finger strength to rack the slides & load the magazines. Those people prefer a small or midsize .38 Special S&W revolver. Mag-loading is not critical, especially with guns that have high-capacity magazines, but you absolutely should not own a semi-auto on which you can't manipulate the slide with authority and ease; your life may depend on it. Get your advice on ammo selection from a local cop who's a firearms trainer/instructor. He'll suggest which conventional jacketed hollowpoint you should buy, probably the one he uses. The beauty of being armed is, when you're armed you're always in charge. You can smile and walk away from belligerent people, knowing you are totally in charge of your environment. Good luck in your search. Phil E

    Reply to the Forum Thread
    Subject: Home defense gun ?
    From: Pull & Mark
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    Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2007 - 09:44 PM CT
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    Lori, Great advice up there for you. I would just like to add that the 357 mag. revolver is a great gun and I am looking for one now myself. They never jam and are very simple to operate. You can load the 357 mag. With a 357 mag. or any type of 38 cal. load from light to heavy to suit your needs. Good Luck Break-em all. Jeff

    Reply to the Forum Thread
    Subject: Home defense gun ?
    From: chatbrat
    Email:
    Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2007 - 01:23 PM CT
    Website Address:

    Lori-go to the Taurus website, look at the video of the Taurus Judge, there is no other hangun that equals that stopping power ---that you can use in a panic situation----it is not a carry gun----please check it out----Phil
     
  2. cableguy

    cableguy TS Member

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    Lori,

    FYI I just got a Taurus PRO 24/7 in .40sw for my wife's side of the bed. The primary reason is that she was having trouble with the .357 revolver(Ruger). She couldn't keep on target when she went to double action. I chose a .40sw because she doesn't like the kick on my .45 and ,for no logical reason, I'm not particularly fond of 9mm's. We chose the Taurus because it fit her hand like the proverbial glove. My 21 year old daughter is soon to get a Taurus PT 111 in 9mm. Her fiance got it for because it fit's both of them well. My personal opinion is get the biggest caliber that you can comfortably handle with .38 being the smallest. Good luck.

    Shawn
     
  3. revsublime

    revsublime TS Member

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    how can you beat an 870 pump for home defense? Not to mention projectile containability.
     
  4. Tdog

    Tdog TS Member

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    Lori-
    There is alot of good advice in the threads above. I'm certainly not an expert on this subject but I do have some experience in training civilian and L.E. handgun shooters. While big cartridges and guns are great at making big holes and stopping the bad guy/gal, if you can't hit the target the weapon is no good to you. Shooting a handgun that physically fits your hand and that you can comfortably grip is very important. This has alot to do with managing the recoil. If you can't manage the recoil of each shot you won't shoot accurately. Shot placemant is far more important than cartridge performance. Home invasion shootings are at close range so smaller caliber cartridges are OK. That being said, size does matter. There are many good 9mm, .38 special handguns available. You can buy 9mm +P+ and .38 spcl +P+ loads that equal many .357 S&W loads. The most important thing to shooting accurately is shooting often. It's like trapshooting, meaningful practice is more important than just shooting alot. Handgun ownership for self defense is also like trapshooting, you start with one gun then after some experience you will most likely try another gun. Just be sure that you practice with it sufficiently before you carry it or rely on it for protection.
     
  5. esoxhunter

    esoxhunter Well-Known Member

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    Lori: As a retired law enforcement firearms trainer I can only furnish what in my opinion is the best home defense weapon. Without a doubt the 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 3 Dram #7 1/2 shot would be my weapon of choice. Reasons? In the close confines of a home, this combination will surely get the job done and a much easier weapon to hit the intended threat. I would recommend a small handgun only if you want a weapon for carrying on your person. In a home, the shotgun rules; due to it's ease of pointing and it lessens the worry of wall penetration. Believe me a shotgun with handicap trap loads, (new shells, due to liability issues), will outperform any handgun inside the confines of a room. Get a pump action with the shortest barrel available. (18"-20")The choke makes no difference. Hope this helps. Ed
     
  6. calilori

    calilori TS Member

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    Hey thanks guys. I got several emails with advice too. I really appreciate everybody's opinion on this. Being a teacher I tend to do my homework before making a decision. I travel a lot by myself too, so that's why I was thinking a handgun of some sort. Obviously, I'd have to get a CCW, but thankfully, in my county they aren't that hard to get.
     
  7. esoxhunter

    esoxhunter Well-Known Member

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    Lori: I forgot to add that if you "Google" up the Mossberg website you will find the Mossberg 500 Persuader/Cruiser 12 gauge shotgun. Synthetic stock and an 18.5 inch barrel. This to me is an ideal home defense gun; no doubt about it. However, if you are looking at an all purpose gun that you can also "carry", then of course the handgun is your only choice. Ed
     
  8. cnjranch

    cnjranch Member

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    Caliori,

    One cartridge that has not been covered is the .357 SIG. Do not confuse this with the .357 magnum though as most do. In the .357 magnum the recoil and flash from the muzzle can be very difficult to deal with. The .357 Sig is a great alternative which has eliminated the above problems and allows accuracy and very nice quick follow-up shots.

    The .357 Sig is also a round which has great incapacitation of the intruder and some law enforcement agencies are switching to them. My wife and I both have the experience when it comes to handguns as we carry every day and have used them. My wife loved her .45 for many years and could out shoot 95% percent of her department. She has since switched to the .40 sig p229 and in fact is changing to the .357 sig in the next couple of weeks with a new barrel in her p229.

    The manufacturers produce all of the calibers above but it also comes down to the amount of money one wants to spend which tends to sway buyers one direction or the other. I caution you in getting a large auto such as the Sig P226 or the full size H&K USP. The two manufactures have mid sizes such as p229 or the H&K USP compact.

    I always caution people about the glock or the sigmas as they have a few problems that some shooters can never over come (pull trigger to disassemble gun, feel of plastic, double action all the time, and a poor safety, etc).

    If you have any questions you can email us and we will attempt to lead you in the right direction. We will also be in Santa Maria for the 400 gold and at triple B next weekend.

    James
     
  9. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Little snub nose .38 will make them wish they never stopped at your place ... Get one and practice, practice, practice till you can hit what you aim at or (2)get married to a guy who has guns and he will take care of it if anything happens and other things besides that ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  10. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Automatic pistols may not be the best idea , sometimes girls have a little trouble with operating the slide. I have an older woman friend who went to a wheelgun after I found she could not load her 1911.

    Shotgun is ok, but having a dog for early warning system is the best.

    HM
     
  11. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    This was sent to me, coincidentally, by a friend yesterday. It looks like a good alternative for home defense, as well as other defense uses.

    esoxhunter,

    I somewhat defer to your years of law enforcement experience. However, I recall a discussion on THR.org regarding birdshot as defensive weapon. At close ranges, 7 1/2s aren't going to create much of a pattern. I will search for the THR discussion, and I'll also look for some patterning of buckshot vs. birdshot at close ranges.

    This will make for excellent home defense discussion, either on this thread or a new one.

    Danny
     
  12. esoxhunter

    esoxhunter Well-Known Member

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    Danny: We tested numerous shotgun loads at a range that would be probable in the average room of a home. (25 feet or so). No shotgun load has any appreciable pattern at this range; be it #4 buckshot, 00 buckshot or #7 1/2 shot. (We trained with all 3) In our training we used a "rule of thumb" that regardless of chokes or shot size; the pattern would open approximately 1 inch per yard.(Within the confines of a normal room). This means at 24 feet (8 yards) the pattern would be approximately 8 inches. All in all a much better pattern than any .45 caliber will throw!! The effectiveness of a shotgun is far above any handgun cartridge at close range. Ed
     
  13. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    Lori, I'm with WPT and esoxhunter solidly and I too come from law enforcement experience. In the house, the short 12 ga pump shotgun just has to be the perfect defense gun and handicap loads would be my choice too. But WPT's advice for a simple, 2 or 3 inch barrel .38 revolver would be my "beginners" choice for a carry gun or car gun. There is so little go wrong with a simple revolver that it's my first recommendation for beginners. While I favor the auto-loader handguns, I'll tell you that it took and continues to take a lot more work and practice to remain proficient and safe with the auto-loading handguns.

    In my advice to those that come to me, number one is you MUST have the mind set that you would intentionally shoot and kill another human being if put in the right circumstances of protecting your life or that of another. Handguns are not recommended just to have to "scare off a bad guy." That's an unacceptable mind set for bringing a loaded gun into the picture. #2 is the advice that the learning curve for safety and proficiency is in favor of the revolver over the auto-loader. #3 is I'd personally rather have a full cylinder of .38 special ammo than to be over-gunned with magnums or big autos even for myself and certainly recommend that to beginners. I'm sure I could go on but offer this for the basic ideas from here. Look at the J. frame Wessons, there are 3 inch barrels that are just a perfect fix for the ladies I've coached and my wife often whips my butt with hers, equipped with hand filling rubber grips. There are other small frame .38s to be had, check them out and give them serious thought.....Bob Dodd
     
  14. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Ed (esoxhunter),

    I don't doubt the patterns are about the same for buckshot and birdshot. Penetration is a different story. Penetration for home defense is a two-edged sword - necessary for stopping ability, but dangerous for others in the house.

    I believe birdshot would be effective over a very short range, say from one foot to about 10 feet. Beyond that range, it would create a very ugly, shallow wound. At a range for the pattern to be effective, an intruder with shirt, sweatshirt and jacket might not even be wounded enough to be hurt.

    I, personally, would not recommend someone rely on birdshot for home defense. I would also not rely on a .22 or .32 for home defense. If someone is in my home, I want a round that will stop them. That is more likely to happen with slugs or buckshot in a shotgun.

    Also, a good reliable shotgun, like an 870, could be loaded with birdshot, buckshot and slugs, all in one magazine. That way, if the birdshot wounds but doesn't stop the intruder, you at least have a backup. If the first shot of birdshot doesn't stop an intruder, the next round I want to use is not another round of birdshot.

    Anyone who looked at the Taurus The Judge promo - does a rifled shotgun bore produce a wider pattern than a smooth bore, with similar length and choke at the same yardage?

    Danny
     
  15. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    One more penetration test link.

    Danny
     
  16. Loyac

    Loyac Member

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    This should do nicely. John
     
  17. ExFedex

    ExFedex Active Member

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    I have an 1100LT 20 Special Field that lives in our closet, travels in our motorhome,hunts birds,and occasionally my wife trap shoots with it.Handles buckshot or target loads. The 21 inch barrel and straight grip make it very quick to mount and fast to point. They are available in the Rem. 870 also but quite a bit heavier. Have to agree with others that a burgler alarm with outside flashing strobe light and a noisey Labrador should be first line of defense. A buddy and I with too much time on our hands were verbally designing an alarm tape if you will that started with several blood,coon,fox,hounds, your choice, baying, a burst of Larry The Cable Guy type profanity, the sound of a pump gun being cycled,and at this stage it finishes with Jack Nicholsons(sp?) famous line, "Heres Johnny". Developement continues.
     
  18. vanman

    vanman TS Member

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    A short barrel .410 with #4 will do the job.

    vanman
     
  19. k1200ltc509

    k1200ltc509 Member

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    Just buy a slug barel for the 1100 and take the two minutes to switch over from the long barrel to the short barrel. Load with reduced recoil buckshot and test it a LOT to make sure that it functions with that load. Then you are using a shotgun that you are familiar with! Stay away from the autopistols in fast calibers, too much penetration. The 9mm genre penetrate more then .223 ball.

    If you have to have a handgun and are willing to become an expert with it, (And it takes a lot of rounds for that) a big bore revolver, buuuut non magnum rounds. And custom grips that fit your hands! There are so many considreations for the fit of any gun to fit a female! Charter bulldog, S&W 44 specials, 45 scp revolvers, loaded with a good, quality bullet. Lead SWC will do just fine in these calibers.

    TAke a quality firearms course from a recoginized instructor, and practice the fine motor skills necesary to manipulate these firearms, and have the correct mindset to use whatever you choose. And then you will cease to be a victim in these situations. Rick Gibbs
     
  20. esoxhunter

    esoxhunter Well-Known Member

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    I stand steadfast that a handicap trap load within the confines of the average house will stop any threat. That being said, Bob Dodd states, "You must have the mindset that you could kill another human being". He is correct. It is not an easy thing to do and I would never fire any gun to scare someone. When it becomes serious enough to fire your gun; you have to be focused on one thing. "Stopping the threat". If you want to scare them, just verbilize that you have a weapon and hope they vacate the premises. However, be sure you have proper cover when you do this. We taught that we would never shoot to kill anyone. What is taught is, "You shoot to stop the threat". Now my training has a "rule of thumb" in close combat shooting such as a room in an average house. Within 10' we try for a shot to the face. Why? To shut down his central nervous system. No one can function when their CN has been shut down. If the range is beyond 10' we teach "center mass". However a CM hit does not mean the threat has totally been eliminated; as if the subject is on drugs and/or has the will they still can function for a period of time. (Which could mean that they still can kill you) However, those are just guidelines. In a real life situation for the average person a center mass hit, (or any hit for that matter) is better than nothing. I will take a center mass hit any day inside the living room of the average house, from a .44, .45, or whatever; before I would take a hit from a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with your handicap loads. Ed
     
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