1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Holland & Holland Double Rifle --help to identify

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Baron23, Jul 8, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,632
    I would try the guys at Doublegunshop.com (Double Gun Journal's board). These guys are nuts for all things double and especially arcane, old, and English.
     
  2. larryjk

    larryjk Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    519
    In Sabetha, Kansas is a company called Wenger Industries. Mr. Wenger is a man of substantial means that is a double rifle collector and a large stock owner in Holland and Holland. If you contact his company, he may be able to help you out.He is also a collector of 600 Nitro rifles and he had 16 when I was there in about 1988. He has the last 600 nitro by Holland and Holland, or so it says on the rib. They are negotiating to make more.
     
  3. larryjk

    larryjk Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    519
    I should have stated why you should go to this fellow. Holland and Holand lost most of their records during the bombing raids of WW2. They will tell you they don't have the records to research.
     
  4. bradhe

    bradhe TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    19
    I might be able to help you; I have worked with a few H&H double rifles. However, I can't see the pictures, I get an access denied message
     
  5. webley

    webley TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    92
    Bernie,

    Once you get the barrels off the gun the proof marks will give you the basic bore diameter. Assuming the loading tools actually go with the gun you'll see that the markings on them confirm it's a .500"

    The loading information you’ve noted on your website would indicate it's a .500 x 3-1/4" BPE (BPE = Black Powder Express). It's NOT a nitro express – I’m sure you’ll appreciate that this is a very important difference. A typical .500" BPE rifle operates at around 10 or so tons/sq" using black powder (hardly low pressure!) but a nitro express rifle operates at more like 15 to 17 tons/sq". A .500 x 3" NE (nitro express) cartridge will fit in your rifle but don’t be tempted to try – or use any old ammunition you may be given.

    It was not uncommon for 3-1/4" guns to have been be used with the more easily available 3" cased ammunition – this caused roughness in the front 1/4" of the chamber which then caused extraction problems if 3-1/4" cases were later used. From memory, the bullet weight for a .500 x 3-1/4" BPE cartridge was something like 440 grain (solid lead) or 380 grain (hollow point).

    The under-lever should swing sideways (to the right as you look down on the top of the rifle).

    There’s a very good chance that the gun was actually made for H&H by W&C Scott.

    Around that period the gun was made the barrels could be either Damascus or steel (but more likely to be steel). The gun has been re-blacked in its life (wrongly so on the action) & it's likely been done in India where it is equally likely the gun came from. Under such circumstances, it's not unknown for Damascus barrels to end up 'black' when they should be brown – in that event you can sometimes see a trace of 'pattern' under the blacking if the light is right. Having said that - I think the odds are your gun will have steel barrels.

    The step between the action & the breech end of the barrels is a deliberate styling feature – admittedly not the most attractive one. Around the 1880's it was fairly commonly seen. On hammerless guns of this period you'll sometimes also see two small lumps on top of the breech (one adjacent to each barrel) – these were a sop to those who missed seeing the tops of the hammers when they moved onto hammerless rifles. So the step between top of the action & barrels most definitely does not imply the wrong barrels are on the rifle – nor is the rifle a "bastard" in any sense of the word.

    The little lift up 'moon sight' on the muzzle is a nice feature. The rear sight leaves are not intended to "pop up" when you move the safety – you lift one or other manually to suit the distance to the target.

    I shoot several BP & nitro double rifles (including a .500 x 3" BPE) – they are not only fascinating in their own right but also fun to use.

    Regards

    Russell
     
  6. bradhe

    bradhe TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    19
    Bernie,

    I think that Russell's points are all correct. I might suggest that you try this post at

    http://forums.nitroexpress.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=doubles

    Most of the big double rifle collectors from around the world are there and could give you more expert opinions. Depending on whether you plan on shooting it or not, I would suggesst sending it to JJ Perodeau at Champlins for a look over. He is probably the best all around double smith / evaluator in the US today. Also, if you can find a copy of "Shooting the British Double Rifle" you can start to learn all the arcania in loading for and shooting BPE doubles.

    best

    Brad
     
  7. jsteenson

    jsteenson Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    223
    It is a hammerless back action sidelock,and the lever is not spring loaded but mearly a cam that moves to the right form the top as the other fellow staed.If it is stuck.put some penetrating oil such as Kroil in it and let it sit,then gently tap it right with a plastic hammer.It should open.It is not a Nitor expres and Dram indicates Black powder as wel as BPE.Chek the barrel flats when you open it,all infor will be there.Hope this helps.Jack
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Search tags for this page

shooting the 577-500 no 2 bpe rifle