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holes in shot pattern

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by oak004, Dec 4, 2009.

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  1. oak004

    oak004 TS Member

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    I seem to have too many holes in my shot pattern for my satisfaction.
    I am reloading STS hulls, 17.8gr Red Dot, CB1118 wads with 1 1/8 oz #8, Win 209primers.
    Cynergy O/U with Briley IM extended choke.

    How much variation in pattern is there in different mfg. choke tubes?

    Any suggestions on where to improve?


    Jim
    Iowa
     
  2. MikeInNPR

    MikeInNPR Member

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    I'm taking this as your not happy with your reloads, but it patterns well with a factory load? You can try 8 1/2 shot to give you 80+ more pellets.
     
  3. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Read the info at the link shown above. By the way, at what distance were your patterns shot from ?
     
  4. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Jim- There is so much variation in patterns shot through the same choke tube it would be difficult to notice the difference between different tubes made by different manufacturers. Patterns, especially shot at 40 yards, have holes in them.

    It is not only possible, but probable, that a shooter from the 27 who makes 100 perfectly pointed shots will miss a target.

    Pat Ireland
     
  5. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    How do you know you have holes in your pattern?
     
  6. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    That's right. There is no way to tell if one has one hole or many holes in any given shot. So, once again, how do you know you have holes in your pattern.
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    s410g, there's an easy formula for determining the number of holes in a pattern; I use it all the time.

    ((1.000-my average)x 100) = number of holes in my patterns.

    Of course, some holes are nearer the center of the pattern than others.

    Neil
     
  8. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    Neil,

    That's not fair:)

    ss
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    . . .and it's not just that that's the problem, Lit, as we have discussed many times. It's the low pressure area created by a hole that draws a clay into it which does the real damage to scores.

    There's a converse effect at work as well. The pressure wall created by the tightly-packed pellets at the center of a pattern tends to push the target off to the side where the concentration of pellets is less and the chance of a miss therefore higher.

    Last, there's the "drafting" effect. You might have noticed how the pickups racing by your trailer park on the gravel at night are often right tail-to-nose. That's called "drafting" and is a trick picked up by Nascar drivers from observing those same pickups. There's a low pressure area there too, directly behind something moving fast, and that's why so often a bird (if a clay, flying or, if a duck, swimming) will move over to where the shot was right after it goes by, again, drawn in there by the low pressure.

    It's all just simple physics.

    Neil
     
  10. oak004

    oak004 TS Member

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    thanx miketmx,

    that was a really good link
     
  11. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    Neil was close, but it's the pressure wave in front of the shot cloud that is the real problem. It moves the target just before the shot gets to it.
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    mrskeet410, I see that you have a talent for shotgun journalism, and so no doubt recognize this as an unmined lode, one that could keep both of us in single malts for quite some time.

    In order to avoid future turf problems, I suggest we agree on a division of territory right from the start. I'll cede you the initial article (1 1/8 0z., full choke) and even sign over rights to my "drafting" insight above. In return, you will leave me an unimpeded field for a least two follow-ups, already practically in galley form:

    1. "What brand of choke best prevents the disruptive pressure wave? "

    and

    2. "Seven-eighths ounce loads and why clays can't escape them! - a pressure-wave explanation."

    If you agree, I think we can both get right to work. Product tie-ins can wait until later; I'm sure we can work something out.

    Neil
     
  13. Savage99Stan

    Savage99Stan Active Member

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    My theory to fix the problem is as follows (tongue in cheek):
    Be sure you index your shells so the logo is upright in the chamber. Note where the holes are on the pattern. Add shot to the sides of the next shells you reload to put more shot where the holes were. Use smaller shot to fill in the openings.

    This makes as much sense as some things I've read. The only answer is to work with the loads until you get the most uniformly distributed patterns you can and hope for the best. Choke for smoke and center your birds in the core. Easy to say, harder to do. No quick or cheap fixes. One pattern shot does not tell you what your gun is doing.

    Sometimes birds, both clay and feathered, fly away with their hearts shot out.
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    There you go, Lit, lording it over us with your knowledge of how "bated" is spelled. But yes, I remember Albany though I don't think that 70's were bad scores when all our biorhythms were in such negative territory.

    Neil
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Neil- Did you really make the above posts or are you possessed by something today?

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. Neal S S

    Neal S S TS Member

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    O.K. Question 1 Are you shooting at the Target while it is Still ? Question 2 How Long is your Shot string ?Question 3 what is the diameter of your pattern ? Question 4 The speed of the target your Missing ?The speed of the pellets in your shell?Do you really think that a Target will fit through a 3 dimensional Hole ?When the Pellets 1, are flying faster than the target! 2 the target is almost always moving Up ,Down, Sideways!So again we are suppose to believe that a target flies through this one hole in your pattern ever time you miss a target ? It May be time to admit that maybe you just didnt get the Barrel into the correct spot To Break the target !Great Luck Shooting Try a diffrent gun Ask any gun dealer they will tell you! Trading guns Always Helps ! They are not lying, Every time you trade it Helps! THEM !lol Good luck Neal
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Neal SS- With a little arithmetic, it becomes clear that there are holes in a pattern that a target can fly through. To shoot 100 X 100 from the 27, it takes a great deal of skill and a little bit of luck.

    Pat Ireland
     
  18. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    By some of the responses above it appears that due to the graphic intelligence necessary to relay proper meaning of content with respect to circumstance, Kyra is back onboard.....

    Neil, my offer still stands and above postings make it apparent that the need is still in existence. That being the shot string/holes_in_pattern/holes on static board question. In the past I wanted to be the shooter I believe but due to my own quest, I will drive the rig. When do we perform this as it would definetly be data for your constant analysis? It appears that it will either have to be done there or here as I don't believe we want to haul the rig to a place of mutual existence.
     
  19. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    My Father (rest his soul) was very much a perfectionist to a fault ... He started patterning his reloads and made or had things made to help him find the answers he was seeking as swiftly as possible ... He had a 30 inch plexiglass circle marked for the exact center, and each quadrant outlined, and then had an exact top, bottom, left and right side all marked on it ... He weighed shot and then counted the number of pellets and placed them in containers with X number of shot in each so when he was reloading he would just grab each container and put its contents into a shell so they were all exactly the same ... I explained that unless each and every pellet was in the same exact place in each shell that he was wasting his time ... He would go and shoot patterns until he was blue in the face and then bring them home to count each little hole and mark where each one was in accordance with his 30 inch plexiglass circle ... His patterns would have holes high right, then low left, then in the center, then right of center, left of center, etc ... He never could figure out why until I explained that unless every pellet was in the same exact place in each and every shell there would be a variation and the holes would continue to move around in the patterns and never be consistant ... I gave him my simple explaination stating that shotshells are like snowflakes and that there are no two exactly alike and there is a chance there never will be ...

    Long story short :

    He said he liked the people in the home where he was recuperateing and that now he only has night mares about little pellets about 5 days a week and not every night like he did before, so the medication must be working ... I explained to his Doctor his relentless pursuit of perfecting the patterning of shotgun shells and counting all of the pellets in each and every shell that he reloaded for the purpose of testing them ... The Doctor said that if any pellet was out of place in any shell the patterns would differ from the others, I said you must be a shooter, HUH ..? He said no common sense would tell you that and all the counting in the world don't matter except with that particular shell ... I told my Dad to shoot all new shells and let the manufactors worry about the rest and he won't ever have to be afraid of all them little pellets attacking him again ... He never did quit reloading, but he backed off on the counting all them pellets and patterning the shells, so he seemed to be a lot less on edge when he passed away ... I cannot help but think that he was wondering if they have an easier method where ever he was going to figure out the patterns and to help count the pellets in the shells ... Rest in peace and don't worry any more because if you didn't presquad its too late now, so it won't matter ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  20. AdamsRibs

    AdamsRibs TS Member

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    Some extremely interesting thories here, but all seem to have missed
    a couple of serious points;

    1. The pattern is NOT 2 dimensional, it is 3 dimensional. How many of you old geezers (like me) remember when the plastic cup wads started to replace the old fiber & cardboard flat "spacer" type wads? Remember the big thing in advertising at that time about the new "Short Shot String" produced by these new-fangled wads? The LENGTH of the pattern also creates a new phenomona which allows targets to "sneak" through.... We need to come up with a 3 dimensional patterning board!

    2. The shot is not always traveling parallel to the line of the target flight. For example, shootng a hard left from station 1 can produce 10 or 15 degrees of angle variation between the line of flight and the direction of the shot. Can one determine the number of sleepless nights that THIS could cause? Combined with the 3 dimensional effect mentioned above, ths could add lots of population to the local Nut Houses and save the lives of countless Clay Birds.....

    Just an FYI.....

    AdamsRibs
     
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