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Hole 2 versus hole 3 scores.

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by phirel, Jul 25, 2008.

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  1. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Bryce- My guess would be an average of around 95.2% for singles. The average would increase a little more on handicap targets but still less than 1%.

    Foe a few shooters, the mental aspect of target angles could make some greater score changes. When we shot three hole targets for one year, after getting used to the narrower angles, I believed it work more on our minds than any other part of our shooting game.

    Pat Ireland
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Bryce, there's another way to answer your question. I imagine that you get two shots, scored differently. I've done a good deal of research on this and found that a shooter shooting "your way" will shoot almost the same average in ATA trap, that is, your wider (and faster) bird is a statistical match for the availability to take that second shot.

    This shows up in a second interesting way. The very best CPSA and SCTA shooters - those who hardly ever use that second shot - shoot the same averages here as at home.

    I have to be careful here, since Pat will be looking over my shoulder with logic texts at hand, but think that indicates that these same best shooters are little affected by the wider targets (and faster too, by the way.) Again, to me, this indicates that the promise that wider targets will do anything to level out the differences between good and less-good shooters is wrong. For example, in the recent handicap by distance (23 yards, I think) British Open Championships Ian Mularkey broke 98 which is a bit better than he does here from the 24, based on his results from San Antonia last year.

    Neil
     
  3. Mr Newbius©

    Mr Newbius© TS Member

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    Bryce ... forget all the mumbo jumbo research data crap and just realize that for the average shooter who knows what they are doing it really wont change all that much if really any at all.

    It is all mental and once it gets into some peoples heads that the targets are at a wider (or narrower) angle then it is a major difference and the rupture of heaven and earth will begin and scores will drop (or increase) and a new wave of controversy will begin along with new products to purchase that will be the cure all for the sport.

    In short ... there aint really no difference if the shooter knows how to shoot.
     
  4. kiwiG

    kiwiG Member

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    Hi Bryce, Personal message 'repeteclay'...Peter Streuber, he has done a considerable of shooting both in the 'States and here in NZ (as well as Aussie), he is a fine fellow with no political 'axe to grind'...I asked him much the same question a year or 2 ago. Cheers-Graham.
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Neil- I do disagree with your assumption "your wider (and faster) bird is a statistical match for the availability to take that second shot", and I do not accept that your anecdotal example using two performances by Ian Mularkey as conclusive.

    But, I do strongly agree with your conclusion. We have the same opinion on this question. Rather than trying to support our opinions with less than solid empirical data, I think it is best to simply state it is our opinions based on a fair amount of shooting at many different places over several years.

    Now, as for logic, first please read Oliver W. Holmes' poem: The Wonderful One-Horse Shay. I guarantee you will enjoy this short assignment and it could form the basis of our future logical discussions.

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    "Hoss", not "horse," Pat.
     
  7. stokinpls

    stokinpls Well-Known Member

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    Let's keep fooling with things until the majority of shooters are shooting in the 80s, then see how many of them show up for the Grand.

    Which would rather be doing, competing in a shootoff or sitting home watching NASCAR?
     
  8. motrap

    motrap Member

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    OK, I got it now .........

    1) Since we can explain the reason for lower scores, with 3 hole targets, as not being shooting (pointing and/or swinging related); (it's all mental/perceptions) then the lower scores do not actually affect the outcome ...........

    [For consistency in application, hopefully there will be a call we can use (similar to "broken target"), maybe "SURPRISE!!!", to be certain that the scorer realizes that it was not because of my shooting ability (or lack thereof), but rather it was my anguish at possibly getting a screaming right, that caused the target to continue on its flight unscathed, and should be scored dead, or at least that I'm entitled to another target ......?]

    2) We should not bother with any target flight rules at all since height/angle/speed do not affect averages/scores ........... (not to mention numbers of shots and shell specs.)

    3) We should do away with averages governing our Classes ...... rather, we should use IQ ....... AAA: 160 and above, AA: 140 - 159, A: 120 - 139 ..... etc.

    For the good of trapshooting .......... Rudy
     
  9. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    I think averages wopuld only move a little between 2 and 3 hole targets. This is because only a small percentage out of every 100 are the extreme angles that theoretically would present a higher degree of difficulty. To hit these angles only requires a small increase in swing speed which most decent shooters would quickly develop.

    Not my job, but if you look at the top 20 average shooters in the year before the brief switch back to 3 holes vs their 3 hole averages and then their post 3 hole averages I bet there is not much difference.
     
  10. GunDr

    GunDr Well-Known Member

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    I just don't know if 3-holers make "all that much difference. Here's a case to point to...

    Several years ago, a few board members took it upon themselves to throw three hole targets for our entire league year. None of the other club members knew it, nor did they reconize the change.

    These few board members were the only ones that shot ATA targets. The rest of the members were just working stiffs like most of us, and just enjoyed the weekly company.

    My thought at the time the targets looked a little wide, but when I asked, they said, "nope, same settings". I shook my shoulders and blew it off.

    Near the end of the summer season of leagues, the guys told me that yes, they had set the pin in the three hole. They thought that the practice would give them an advantage with the 2-hole ATA targets.(My thinking is they wanted the advantage in the league.

    Well, lo and behold, the entire league shot above there past few years of league averages. A couple of the board members even got beat.

    I had been a member there for quite a few years, but that particular year, almost everyone, picked up on their game. Those who had never had a gun fitted to themselves were fitted. Some asked for pointers to improve their game. Some took lessons (even had Nora show up for a weekend)It seemed as if they all just wanted to shoot better, and did something about it.

    Was it because of the 3 hole?? I don't think so. It was just determination.
     
  11. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    GunDr, I don't doubt what you say for a second isn't true. Not having the ability to know the difference between the two settings says in-experience only. Some non ATA league shooters along with some ATA shooters may fall into that category or not even care! Considering another year of shooting, why wouldn't we expect an improvement from those people?

    Some of the statements being made here saying there's no difference or hardly any differences leads me to question why the change was necessary in the first place if that's so? That's saying less angle is just as tough so why not shoot 24 degree settings instead of 34? Hap
     
  12. Delbert

    Delbert TS Member

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    Why is the Las Vegas Retro Handicap not registered? 3-hole targets are legal.
     
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