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== Hold Points Revisited ==

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by GW22, Aug 28, 2011.

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  1. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    Years ago I remember getting screwed-up after hearing the great Rudy Etchen emphasize that he held his gun below the top of the traphouse on all single-bird events. Rudy was simply a phenomenal shooter and if he had said "Shoot with a wad of bubble gum stuck on your nose" I probably would have rushed out and bought a skid of Bazooka. After putting a lot of wasted lead down the pipe I eventually learned that, for me, a hold point anywhere near that low is suicide. But for some reason I've always assumed that most great shooters, even today, still hold pretty low. Even Leo only seems to hold about a foot off the top of the house. But I recently saw a video of Harlan Campbell and he seems to hold AT LEAST 3 feet off the top of the house. That made me feel good, because holding high like that is the only way I've ever been able to shoot well.

    So now the question: Was I just wrong all these years and lots of good trapshooters have always held high like I have to, or is this a fairly recent development? Where do YOU hold?

    In any case, it's nice to not feel like an oddball anymore. ...at least not because of my shooting ;)

    -Gary
     
  2. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Gary, they hold for each field. I've seen Leo, Kay, and Ray hold above parallel when the winds pushing them at Mason.

    For singles I've recently found holding generally parallel and looking below the barrel in singles works. Handicap, well that's a work in progress. Let me get back to you on that lol

    Jim chapman

    HELL, Michigan
     
  3. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    Jim:

    It's funny that you mention "looking below the barrel." Last weekend I was trying to help a young shooter and when I told him to try this he looked at me like I had two heads. He said his coach had taught him to "look straight down the rib -- ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS." I consider that to be HORRIBLE advice (or grossly misleading at the very least). I told the kid to watch the above Gil Ash video, but I haven't seen him since to find out if he tried it.

    How many others reading this hold high and "look below the barrel" for the bird?

    -Gary
     
  4. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    Gary, I shot that way for most of the 40 years in the game and can't imagine otherwise. I think that original advice may well have been meant for singles and a lower gun for long handicap would be high on the suggestion list......breakemall
     
  5. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    BDodd: I'm not 100% sure I understand what you're saying. If you wouldn't mind, please restate using other words so I can be sure.

    THANKS,
    Gary
     
  6. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    Hmmm, yeah a little vague, eh? I shot singles with a roughly parallel gun and looked down through the barrel for the outcoming bird for most of those 40 years; it was the only way for me. For longer birds, Handicap, I and many others will lower the gun some, often down to the front edge of the trap house. But I still hold roughly where I can look off the bead to right or left to see the bird appear. Not everyone is the same but it's worth trying if you are in the mood to give-er-a-try.......breakemall again!
     
  7. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    Give-er-a-try, hell -- it's the only way I know how to shoot!

    -Gary
     
  8. SMOKEIT

    SMOKEIT Well-Known Member

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    Kinda depends on whether you shoot one eye or two eye. Very few one eye shooters can hold level,
    look under the barrel and shoot well. Receiver blocks your one eye vision on some shots. I shoot one eye and hold about 1 ft over house and try to see the bird leave the house in my peripheral vision--most but not all the time. My primary focus is well over the bead. Different strokes for different folks!.....SMOKIT
     
  9. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    Yeah, let's keep this simple and please confine this discussion to two-eyed shooting. Like you said, closing one eye makes things different.

    -Gary
     
  10. Two Dogs

    Two Dogs Well-Known Member

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    Gary...If you are a two eyed shooter, and lets say right handed, your right eye is the rear sight and can only look down the rib..If you like to hold high and look down, it has to be with the left eye, and only your left eye.

    People will tell you that they never look at the beads ...if your gun fits you properly....your eye will be looking right down that barrel and at those beads, that's where you need the soft focus as to look past the beads.

    Now ...one eyed shooters have no choice but to look down the barrel and should hold a low gun....
     
  11. 20yard

    20yard TS Member

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    I am a one-eyed shooter and I do hold the gun down at the house but I dont look down the barrel at the beads. Once I mount the gun I look at the beads as I lower it to my hold point, then my eye focus goes out past the house with a soft focus. At this point I am focused for bird, when I see it from the house I focus on the leading edge for left or right, my gun raises and I pull the trigger without thinking about it. There is no aiming, bead checking etc.
     
  12. bluedsteel

    bluedsteel Member

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    I started out shooting two-eyed, then went to one-eye shooting, and for the last year and a half I am back to two-eyed shooting. I know you said you wanted to keep this simple, but I did find that shooting one-eyed required me to adopt a lower hold point.

    I have recently concluded that there is a fair amount of individual technique involved in "hold points', and one has to figure out what works for oneself. I have also concluded that when you think you have things figured out, you really don't, and you have to make a change. Sometimes that is due to the aging process, sometimes other factors. The only constant is change.

    I do know that you have to be willing to make changes if you want to improve your scores (or in some cases even maintain them).

    Right now, I am using a higher hold point on both singles and caps. I shoot a K80 Trap Special, and a higher hold point seems to work well with that gun, but handicap scores remain inconsistent. So...

    bluedsteel
     
  13. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    Two Dogs, yes I understand that with my high hold position the barrel blocks my dominant right eye from looking down at the house for the bird. But I still do it and it does not disturb me at all that I'm initially picking up the target with my left eye. If I had problems with cross-firing I'd be worried, but I don't and this is what works for me. My right eye takes over easily as the bird rises.

    I'm just curious about how unusual/common these two things are (the high hold point and the "look down past the barrel" as BigMPerazzi pointed out).

    -Gary
     
  14. Two Dogs

    Two Dogs Well-Known Member

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    The general rule of thumb that I use, is to never take a hold point any higher than half the height of the target, and if a one eyed shooter...get down on the house to see that target as soon as it emerges.
     
  15. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    I shot a shoot this weekend into the wind. The targets where climbing fast. I held straight level with the ground out over the trap. I never look at the beads. I mount my gun the same way every time and go when it fells right. I am focused just over the front lip of the trap, the whole time I am mounting the gun with both eyes open. When I am in the middle station I hold the barrel slightly off to the right side of center, so when the bird comes out I see it at first glance with both eyes no matter which direction it goes. When it goes right it crosses under the gun visually but is above it so fast you hardly realise that you loose vision of it with your dominant eye. I tried one eye shooting and it freaked me out. Totally a different view of what I usually see. The barrel seemed way right of the target to break it on straight aways, and really noticed it leaving your vision when it crossed under the barrel.
     
  16. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

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    Take a look at the hold points photos on my above website.

    Don't know about you but I was fortunate to get this information when I first started shooting and made the 27 in 13 months. I didn't have these pictures, but my 27 yard buddies taught me this from day one. These are for a 2-eye shooter. I also hold a bit lower at 27 yards, but focus areas are the same.

    These were done by a top shooter from Ohio who is a shootinge instructor for a billionnaire who entertains wealthy guests at his estates in the UK.

    Whiz
     
  17. Cooter

    Cooter Member

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    IMHO hold positions do two main functions,they allow you to see the target without creating any blind spots(looking under the gun)and to cut down unnecesary gun movementon on the majarity of targets,verticle holds are personal preference ,as long as you leave some verticle movement to the target .If you want a great explanation of heights and where to hold get Frank Littles dvd,he gives you these and explains why.
     
  18. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    I'm delighted to find Whizer's hold points are exactly what I do (did - now inactive). I basically learned those points over the years and did my best with them; a right handed, 2 eye shooter.....breakemall
     
  19. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    I have used the D. Lee Braun, Whiz White, Jim Forsbach gun holds for many years. In D. Lee Braun's classic book he said that the gun holds favor the right angle target and the foot positions are geared to compensate for the left angle targets. In addition to this explanation, I find that these gun holds help to overcome my tendency to crossfire because my barrel is off to the right side so that my right eye can stay in control without the blind spot. I find that when my left eye locks on the target, it doesn't want to give control back to the right eye and a crossfire can result.
     
  20. mike campbell

    mike campbell Active Member

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    I use hold points similar to the ones on Whiz's website, except that peg 5 mirrors peg 1. In other words, about 8-12" inside the corner, not outside. What is the rationale for holding outside on 5/ Why wouldn't it be just the opposite of 1?

    The comment I hear most often from novice and intermediate shooters is " why do I miss the straightaways?" You don't have to watch many shooters miss a straightaway before seeing that, most often, their muzzle does a "whoop-de-woo" to get on line. Give them a hard right on 5 and they may never catch up to it, but their muzzle won't be following a bumblebee's flight path to get to it.

    Any barrel movement that is not in a straightline to the target is 1)wasted motion if not 2) downright wrong and detrimental. I think a lot of shooters would be well served to take a hold point much closer to the line of a near straightaway......just like the ones for 1-4 of Whiz's diagram.
     
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