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Hold Points Question

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by dmarbell, Jan 8, 2008.

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  1. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    I had some trouble with station 1 near the end of last year, my first year shooting trap. The main field I use does not have the boundary stakes, only the center stake. I spent some time on another field with the boundary stakes, and lo and behold, I had been allowing for too much right angle at station 1.

    It started me thinking that, if the birds are shot at the left and right boundary stakes, then the center of the flight path from any station would be the center stake. But since the birds are shot considerably before 50 yards from the house, the " V " from station 1 is skewed considerably to the right of the center stake. From station 1, the right hand bird is about on the line with the right boundary, while the left bird is shot on a line that appears to the right of the left boundary. See the above graphic.

    However, for minimum gun movement on any bird on station 1, it looks like the hold point would be farther off the house than most shooters use. My graphic is approximately to scale, and the hold point for midway of the V is about 2 1/2 yards left of the house.

    I shoot two-eyed. I can mount my gun and see through the gun down to the house. I can see the flash of the bird coming out of the house. This might not work for one-eyed shooters.

    But, has anyone tried holding that far off the house on stations 1 and 5? Hold 2 yards off the house, then look right or left with your shooting eye dominant, and watch for the bird?

    Skeeters don't look down the barrel when calling for the bird. I have read some trap shooters hold lower and look higher, and some one-eyed shooter must hold low and look out higher over the house.

    I also know that I have to try this and see how it works for me. I'll try that today, if the weather here holds.

    Danny
     
  2. Hipshot 3

    Hipshot 3 TS Member

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    Danny....Good post! Good luck!
     
  3. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Danny,

    Your geometry is correct, however, the difficulty in holding off the corner of the house is with targets that come more straight out of the house. These requires you to move the gun to intersect the flight path rather than to swing with the flight path. If you are moving the gun in the opposite direction of the target path you greatly reduce your chance of hitting the target by overswinging past or through the target.

    Because you are not swinging with these target paths, you, in effect, become a spot shooter and it is really easy to misjudge that spot where your swing intersects with the target path. Think of it as jumping from a bed of one pickup going 25 mph into the bed of another pickup going in the same direction at 20 mph as you pass the slower one. Pretty easy. Not so much if the pickups are going in opposite directions.

    Even holding on the corner of the house on 1, I was having a problem with targets that were going to the right. I finally solved it by developing a definite horizontal slide across the top of the house and then bringing the gun up under the target to get my gun swinging on the target path.
     
  4. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    I hold just inside the the outside corner on #1. then two feet off the outside crorner on #5. I'm right handed. I try to move each hold position to the right on each post. I.E. center on #2, just right of center on #3. Outside corner on #4. Works for me.
     
  5. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    I also hold my gun like shot410ga which is pretty much the classic D. Lee Braun system. I have a tendency to crossfire and find it is necessary to hold a lower gun and look over the barrel on Posts 1 & 5 so that my right eye is always in control. I do hold a higher gun on Posts 2,3, and 4. I have tried all the other methods many many times over a period of 45 years and realize that I have to favor the right angle targets.
     
  6. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Danny, the / you drew for the birds flight pattern would be a tad more enlightening if you extended it back to approx. 3' to the right side of station 1. Opposite from station 5 for the other side of your \.

    That's how most regulation targets are set. So, from stations 1 and 5, you won't get a true straight away!

    As said above, it's very easy to shoot behind these birds with a wide move in that direction, thinking it's a straight away. Hap
     
  7. ebsurveyor

    ebsurveyor Member

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    Holding off of the corners is a sure way not to make AAA!!!
     
  8. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    I was talking about the 27 when I talked about my hold points, sorry. I use the standard hold at the 16. Left outside, right outside, center, and inbetween on #2 & #4. 18 to 24" high.
     
  9. romie

    romie Active Member

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    I have to hold for the straightaway.I tried to favor the hard rights and lefts on 1 and 5 and missed the straights.But I am no expert at all;
    Monty
     
  10. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    I actually tried the way-off-the-house type of hold yesterday, and saw firsthand what JBrooks was talking about. On station 1, I had no real trouble with the hard lefts or rights, but the birds that went out of the house towards the center stake or slightly left gave me a problem. My follow through on those angles was in the opposite direction of the bird flight.

    DevilsAdvocate, for holding for straight-aways, the hold point would then be the red line in the above graphic? I see that with that hold point, on all the stations, you would be swinging in the direction of the bird, no matter which direction the bird comes out.

    I've had some trouble with birds coming straight or nearly straight out of the house lately. I see the birds clearly, and miss without being able to tell why. I'm having much less trouble with hard angled birds that require more swing.

    If my graphic is nearly correct, then the hold point for a straight-away on station 1 would be just inside the left part of the house. I know YMMV, but it seems like that hold would require a slightly low hold point to avoid losing birds coming out under the gun?

    Danny
     
  11. midalake

    midalake Well-Known Member

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    I hold about a foot off the house in station 1 and 5. I am a one eye shooter. Your "theory" of coming back to the target or some type of follow through problem, is wrong. Your "geometry" lines will cross and overlap in all stations.
    What would change in station 3 with a hold dead center of the house???? Nothing!!! You still have to moved one way or the other to go to the target. With a hold in station 1 or 5 a foot off the house nothing changes in follow-through. Now if your moving your gun on the call.....then there will be a follow through problem. I think if you poll most shooters why they miss the straight away in 1&5 the answer you would most likely here is "I got there so fast and went right over or past the target. I find that holding off the corners of the house actually keeps your "take time" more consistant. With variations in traps, and conditions the thought of taking that "straight away" target as a straight away will leed you to more lost "straight aways". I was a cannot leave the corner of the house guy for a few years. Now I have new shooters hold 6-12 inches off on either side.

    GS
     
  12. code5coupe

    code5coupe Member

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    Every shooter has their favorite hold points...and they sure aren't all the same.
    Only time and experience will tell you what yours should be.
     
  13. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    [Please note that all my discussion here is in the form of questions. I am a newish shooter working through all the issues in my head before starting my second season]

    GS,

    I'm not sure about your proposition that your swing would always be in the same direction with the normal hold point on station 1. Look at the above. If you shot the bird at any point prior to about 40 yards, you would have to move the gun slightly right on a bird that from your perspective is moving slightly left from the house. I'm not sure I'm right on this, but the geometry seems to say so.

    The more off the house you hold, the more right you would move on this bird, which I still maintain is heading left from the house from station 1 perspective.

    From DevilsAdvocate point of view, if you hold for the straight bird on every station, you would always be moving the gun in the direction of the bird movement. On station 1, you would have extreme left gun swing on the hard left bird, though.

    If extreme gun movement harder than spot shooting the almost straightaway birds?

    Danny
     
  14. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Danny,

    You stated that you are a two eyed shooter. One eyed shooters are shooting a very different method. You really can't mix the two.

    Rule of thumb, the more you have to move the gun, the more chance you have a making a physical mistake. By example, you would seldom miss a target hanging still on a string.

    However, on staright aways we tend to see the target come up and shoot without moving the gun to create the vertical lead that is just as necessary as a horizontal lead.

    Most people who think they shot over a target, didn't. It is really hard to do unless you are waiting for the target to reach its apex.
     
  15. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I agree with JBrooks.

    I'd add this also. Which target do you hear most guys talking about missing? Almost to the man you'll hear "straight" away or one close to that. Watch targets set for an ATA event standing behind the line and count the number of true straight away targets you see from there during a complete round.

    From station 1, 0 will be closer to the count, same thing for 5. Misreading the target leads to missing what seems like a simple straight target when in fact it takes a small amount of lead to the inside to smoke that target. Just like your last two drawings show you. Hap
     
  16. j2jake

    j2jake Well-Known Member

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    Just finished the Nora Ross clinic. The first and most important thing is to SEE the target. As Nora put it you must look at the target. Hold points are to optomize you seeing the target leave the house. I am one eyed and my points will not help you. I strongly recommend a clinic as Pat Kelly suggested. Jake
     
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