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$$$ High Prices Poor Quality $$$

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Dennis DeVault, May 15, 2008.

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  1. Dennis DeVault

    Dennis DeVault Well-Known Member

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    Well I just had to show this one. Last night I had a customer that brought me a shell that he shot in a MachOne and the photo's below show the result. The primer has been hit hard enough that the primer is now setting .053 or about 1/16" below the face of the shell. In the past we have had customers call and complain that the firing pins are too short or ram springs not strong enough to set off a shell. As you can see you cannot possibly hit a primer any harder and not go off. The customer has had 4 of these in the past week. I for one do not mind paying more for the sport that we love but this is piss poor quality at its best. Componant cost have went through the roof but quality has continued to decline. In a recent conversation with a shell manufacturer I was told that I just didn't understand high speed production and quality really didn't matter. The man told me as long as they made the shells cheap enough people would buy them anyway, no matter what the quality. The shell pictured has a Winchester 209 primer and conversation that took place was with Federal Shell Company. Sorry to vent a little but just thought that this was worth sharing.

    Dennis DeVault
    <a href="http://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u279/CKDeVault/?action=view&current=shell2.jpg" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    <a href="http://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u279/CKDeVault/?action=view&current=shell3.jpg" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>
     
  2. Tron

    Tron Supporting Vendor Banned Supporting Vendor

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    Does the fact that it's a reload have anything to do with it? What I mean is his choice of components (primers) causing metal fatigue??
     
  3. tom berry

    tom berry Active Member

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    Dennis,

    did the inner part of the primer slide deeper into the sleeve without igniting?

    It appears to me that the brass colored part is deeper than it should be.

    tom
     
  4. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Just got the word today that local distrbutor is having trouble getting Winchester primers. Maybe they are having quality control problems. HMB
     
  5. Dennis DeVault

    Dennis DeVault Well-Known Member

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    The other reloads that he had were just fine. And yes the primer has an inner and outer cup. If the inner primer is not saeated properly the firing pin will move the inner primer forward and take the inertia out of the firing pin. The brass part has been pushed deeper into the outer cup. Tom, there was no ignition, the shell is whole and remained unfired. Tron, the shell was a once fired Remington Nitro so it had not been loaded excessivly. According to Winchester the firing pin must put a .010 to .012 deep dent to cause ignition. The dent in the primer is .016 deep.

    Dennis
     
  6. shannon391

    shannon391 Active Member

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    Dennis,

    Figure out how to build us good cheap shells! I could then afford one of your masterpieces. I think Harlen shot his best scores with your iron and wood.

    Future client.
    Shannon
     
  7. alfermann66

    alfermann66 Member

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    Dennis, it appears to me that the primer did not have the required anvil installed. If that's the case, your questioning of mfrs. quality assurance is valid. Even if an anvil was installed....the primer cap was clearly hit hard enough that ignition should have occured.

    Buz
     
  8. Frye

    Frye TS Member

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    Interesting.. I switched to W209's because I couldn't get the darn Federal primers to go off... I haven't been using the Winchesters very long, but so far I like 'em. They've gone BANG every time. In looking at the picture, I had a shell that looked very similar that didn't go off in my XT. Federal Primer in that particular. It looked very similar. I cut the shell in half on the line to dispose of powder and to my surprise, the primer had fired?? After looking at it some more, I came to the conclusion that a fired primer had gotten mixed in with the unfired primers while I was loading. How that happened, I have no idea... I use a single stage loader, but that shell looked almost identical to the one in the photo.
     
  9. Dennis DeVault

    Dennis DeVault Well-Known Member

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    I took apart two of the other three shells taht did the same thing and the primer is still intact.

    Dennis DeVault
     
  10. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    I had one of these happen with a WW209 in my last case of WW. I have since moved on to Cheddites due to the cost factor.
     
  11. ink ball

    ink ball Member

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    I've used Winchester 209 primers exclusively for over 20 years, and I'm sure I've reloaded well in excess of 100,000 shells..probably a lot more than that, actually...probably closer to 200,000. I've had a total of two primers that failed to ignite the powder charge.
     
  12. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    Dennis: As you know I had two Winchester AA FACTORY loads fail to ignite with the primers hit hard. I sent them back to the factory [AA] and they blamed the gun's firing pin, but sent me a coupon for a box of new shells. The shells I sent you were AA PRIMER reloads and the new extended firing pin in the Mach One works just fine. I now examine every primer for faults in the anvil as we discussed. If enough of us complain to the factory they may take responsibility for VERY POOR QUALITY CONTROL AND STOP BLAMING OUR GUNS. Fred
     
  13. oz

    oz Active Member

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    looks like you hit it with a chisel TWICE. oz
     
  14. Dennis DeVault

    Dennis DeVault Well-Known Member

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    The firing pin extende of total of .072 which is .010 farther than SAMMI spec. requires.

    Dennis DeVault
     
  15. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    Yes, but that slight extension seems to really work. Some of it is in my head. I was in the process of "running the field" yesterday during an ATA shoot and I realized that I had complete confidence in my gun... no thought of a miss fire. No I did not run 100 straight, but came close. The Mach One is just a pleasure to shoot... it makes up for my screw ups. Fred
     
  16. highrib

    highrib Member

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    A couple weeks back had a problem with Win 209 primers for the first time.
    One box of 100 yielded roughly a dozen hard to fire primers. Shells were placed in four different guns. Browning XT Skeet, (2) Perazzi DB81's, and Rem 870.
    All finally fired but 1.870 was used to set the 5 worst offenders off after all else failed excepting the one. Primers had the center (brass portion) noticeably deep. Rims were fitted to standard depth just eyeballing them. Others at our club looked at the primers and reached the same conclusion. These primers came from a 5000 sleeve in which I had fired approximately 1200 with no problems all loaded on the same MEC 9000G. Have since fired about 600-800 more and have had no issues. Bought these primers and paid $150 a sleeve to put in my competition shells!
    A few words of caution. I remember an urban legend about a guy having a misfire with a rifle cartridge, placing it in his shirt pocket and the having the thing go off sometime later, doing bodily harm!! Don't think I would put these in my pants pocket.


    Billy Wood
     
  17. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    To avoid problems like this, I buy all my components at WalMart. They come in convenient little dark red tubes, ready to use. I've gone through 10s of thousands of them without a FTF.
     
  18. John Thompson

    John Thompson TS Member

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    Next year will be 44th Grand. 330,000 registered and probably well over 70,000 practice and games. I have shot the big 3 for this entire time. I have loaded matching wads & primers to the case. I have had failures to fire in all 3 over the years. All 3 have had quality problems at given times. I have had shells fail to fire in a M 12 or other moving breach gun that would fire in a perazzi. Everything is cyclical. Who remembers Blue Magics that would have the case separate at the powder line after 1 or 2 reloads? Federals that would not fire in a weak springed M 12? Win.s that sounded like they had 1/2 load of powder? I remember posts about hard Cheddite primers that are causing 2 piece firing pins to separate. The good ones get better only after they loose market share
     
  19. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I just thought of a funny. If ESPN was covering special shoots like they do in golf tourneys, X is shooting with brand X shells and the camera inside the traphouse will show how the target literally explodes at impact in an off-set screen! OOPSIES, a dud with brand X loads?

    There's nothing wrong with our guns firing pins, it's a quality control problem brought about because of cheaper import shells. I've occasionally had mis-fires with every primer out there except my current one, only because I haven't shot enough of those yet. Maybe one day, pride in quality control of all our choices in ammo will rise again, I sure hope it does. Hap
     
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