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Help needed: OH Scores v PA Scores

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by ebsurveyor, Jun 29, 2009.

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  1. ebsurveyor

    ebsurveyor Member

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    Help needed: OH Scores v PA Scores

    I've been looking at the scores from the recent OH State Shoot. After shooting the PA State Shoot I need some help analyzing the scores. . The targets at PA were the best in several years and in my opinion could not have been any better. Here's what I need help with: At the 09 PA state Shoot we had 4522 entries in the various handicaps and 22 shooters broke scores of 98 or above. That's one 98 or above for every 206 entries. In OH they had 3993 entries and 80 scores of 98 or above. That's one 98 or above for every 80 entries. It was not weather related. Last year in PA 18 scores of 98 or above were broken by 4196 entries (1 in 233). The weather was better in PA last year, but the targets were not as good. So, what gives? Leo was not in PA is not the reason. Why can't big scores be broken in PA 'Caps @ Elysburg? Why do most "BIG GUNS" make one or two trips to PA and never return? I have my theory and I'm interested in yours.
     
  2. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    1 - Superior background?

    2 - Superior shooter's?

    Curt
     
  3. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    Butch, this isn't the answer to your question but I've had several of the big names who did participate in our shoot once or twice tell me they can't make enough money here to make the trip worthwhile. They claim us Pennsylvania Dutchmen are too cheap to play the money.

    We're too smart, if you ask me...

    Ed
     
  4. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    I'm with Ed although I'm not Dutch but my wife is!!
     
  5. zinger

    zinger Member

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    I know for a fact that money is the main reason for no big guns in PA. Those chasing AA points were there but those were mostly junior shooters. If I were to guess, I'd have to say that Elysburg is a tougher place to shoot due to the terrain and wind... But then, what do I know?..lol
     
  6. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    But that doesn't explain why there was a higher percentage of top scores shot in Ohio. It would take an awful lot of big guns to make that much of a difference in the scoring.

    Wait - are Pennsylvania shooters sandbaggers?

    Ed

    (Just kidding!)
     
  7. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    When there is a lot of money to be won, the scores get better. HMB
     
  8. ebsurveyor

    ebsurveyor Member

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    The difference in big gun attendance is all about scores and All American Points. Money has very little to do with it regardless of what someone says. My proof is the Satellite Grands in FL. Very little money compared to the PA State Shoot, but well attended by Big Guns. Useing Kansas City as the mid-point of the country, PA is several hundred miles closer than Silver Dollar. My two questions were: #1. Why can't big scores be broken in PA 'Caps @ Elysburg? and #2. Why do most "BIG GUNS" make one or two trips to PA and never return? For an answer to question 2 see question one. Explanation if you need it: "Big Guns" don't shoot PA because they can't break big handicap scores there. What is the answer to question #1?
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    ebsurveyor- I am not sure your comparison with the Florida shoots in the Winter is valid. I can see another reason shooters travel to the Dixie Grand in January. It is the first shoot of the calendar year that I get to wear shorts. Also at times, actually at all times, the breeze is blowing in Florida and the scores are not impressively high.

    The scheduling of these two fine shoot may require many to select only one of them. All of us would be better off if we could subtract two weeks from both January and February and add them to June and July.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Another point to make is when it come to difficulty of breaking score why in the Eastern (PA) and Southern Zones is the break point for a reduction 1 full target less than the rest of the country.

    Eastern Zone: 89%

    Central Zone 90%

    Southern Zone 89%

    Southwestern Zone 90%

    Western Zone 90%

    Wouldn't this indicate a greater difficulty in breaking higher scores than the Central Zone? (Ohio) Just an observation and opinion.

    Bob Lawless
     
  11. ebsurveyor

    ebsurveyor Member

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    Good point Bob. Targets in the eastern zone are no harder to hit. They are just harder to break. Many places in the Eastern Zone shoot all orange targets or the so called NY Target, which might as well be all orange. The problem in the Eastern Zone is TO MUCH PAINT on the target. Do many clubs in the Western Zone, Southwestern or Central Zone use all orange targets? Just my observations.
     
  12. 100after9

    100after9 TS Member

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    what kind of traps are used in Ohio????
     
  13. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    ebsurveyor

    "The problem in the Eastern Zone is TO MUCH PAINT on the target"

    This statement would be better addressed by the target companies.

    "Many places in the Eastern Zone shoot all orange targets or the so called NY Target, which might as well be all orange."

    My experience is there is a difference to the eye between the orange domed targets (all orange) and the NY style target. What is being shot in other parts of the country as I have never shot outside of the EZ?

    Bob Lawless
     
  14. K80433SC

    K80433SC Member

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    Having shot both venues, my humble opinion centers around TWO main themes : the background and the brand of trap machine...........

    The background is FAR too varied and uneven, from bank to bank - in Elysburg. Add into the equation a VERY unpredictable wind, and it makes for a rather difficult place to shoot. It is one thing to be able to see the target leave the house and "read" it, only to have that upward & swirling breeze move it - when it does not appear to have moved.

    The other factor that cannot be ignored is the use of the GMV trap machines, as opposed to the Pat trap. I will argue the superiority of the Pat trap machine with anyone, in its ability to throw a more consistant and predictable target - at ANY venue. Even with the much-ballyhooed rebuilds done to the traps at Elysburg, I would prefer my targets thrown from a Pat trap.

    I know that there are those who are just "chomping at the bit" to refute my observations and claims. That is precisely why I opened with the disclaimer of "my humble opinion"..........
     
  15. KRK32

    KRK32 Member

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    I guess noboby from PA wants to recognize BANK 5 I have been there twice and it was the same story both times nowhere to shoot but bank five although that might be a different situation if your from pa. I cant be the only one this has ever happened to might be a coincidence though. Just my thoughts on elysburg.
     
  16. K80433SC

    K80433SC Member

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    KRK32 : The bank preference shown at Elysburg has been a VERY sore subject with many an "average Joe", and for a VERY long time (myself included).

    It has long-been known that bank preference has been given to past benefactors - those who donated $$$$ to purchase trap machines - years ago. A time frame had been established for that preference, and that time frame has expired.

    HOWEVER -- it continues.....................

    I went to my very first delegates meeting this year, and personally posed this problem to PSSA President Mike Schuler. While I did not expect any "real" concern on the part of the governing body of the organization, I was taken by the arrogance of the reply. Basically -- if you are / were wealthy enough to donate / have donated money to the PSSA, you will continue to be given bank preference -- even though the established time frame has expired.

    "That is the least we can do for those who purchased traps" was the response I got.

    No one at the "head table" had anything else to offer. Our State Delegate sat quiet ; all other officers of the organization sat quiet ; the tournament director sat quiet..........

    Now -- were I in a position to choose my trap bank, as well as the optimum time of the day to shoot on my preferred bank, I might have sat quiet, also.

    As stated earlier, I did not REALLY expect any sympathy from the State Organization in this matter. My only further question would be this : If you took the total number of shooters who donated money to "buy" their way into preference and set them aside in a group in the parking lot - and THEN put the remaining shooters who support the trapshooting events at Elysburg into another group in the parking lot, exactly WHICH group would be larger ? WHO really pays the freight at the shoots ? How many entries would they have, if the "peons" of the sport chose to boycott their preference attitudes?

    Mind you - they run a very-well organized tournament at the homegrounds in Elysburg. That cannot be denied. I just think that, given the economic woes that are causing many to carefully choose where to spend discretionary income, and with more shooter friendly venues like Ohio within driving distance, perhaps the "brain trust" at Elysburg might want to consider altering their stance - both on bank preference and the implementation of a rotating-bank system.
     
  17. Chester White

    Chester White Member

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    Finally K80433SC tells it like it is.
     
  18. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    The "preferred squadding" situation has existed at Elysburg for a long time. I can remember being at the squadding windows when they opened Friday evening for the first time for the state shoot. Two years in a row, I was the first person to one of the three windows they opened the night before the shoot began and was told there were no squads available for banks one, two and three for the entire nine-day shoot! Both times, the person at the window (who I know) sheepishly apologized and suggested I check back now and then because Bob Stuart would be opening more squads as the days go on. But really - EVERY squad on three banks for what, nineteen events, already spoken for?

    As you may have already assumed, not all those squads go to the PSSA benefactors and employees. Just this year, a friend of mine told me he and three of his regular squadmates would be on bank one for every event they were shooting - "A buddy at Elysburg fixed me up," he told me. He told me the person's name but I don't want to get anyone in trouble.

    The point is the "good old boys" system has been hard at work at Elysburg for many years; longer than many of us have been shooting. My solution to the problem has been to find other banks on which I like to shoot. Banks nine and ten are nice and I even broke a 200-straight - my first one, in fact - on apparently infamous bank five.

    I look at it this way. If those gentlemen and ladies who spend so much of their time working to make Elysburg the nice place to shoot that it is and run the shoots so well can be reimbursed for their efforts, being away from their families so much and having little other recreational time to themselves by being able to shoot the banks they want, they work pretty cheap!

    Ed
     
  19. wdr-NY

    wdr-NY TS Member

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    Harlan came to the Empire Grand at Cicero this year... He murdered the targets and walked away with his All American points to boot. But the Empire Grand only has a multiplier of 4 for AA points and the PA State is a 7. Harlan wasn't at the PA State Shoot... Noone would argue that Cicero throws better targets, has better weather, more money or is run better than PA, so I'm at a loss. Maybe I'll just email Harlan and ask him. My guess is he was probably making money running clinics in the lead up to the Ohio State shoot and chose not to go to PA.

    Kay Ohye, Debbie Ohye, Chris Vendel, Brad Heath, David Shaeffer, Steph Sandler, Ray Lee, Steve Huber are just some of the big guns who were at PA... the list is much longer but my memory is terrible.

    Its true that there isn't a ton of money being played at PA... the shoot is long and money is short... But shooters like Shaeffer, Vendel and the Ohyes definitely made enough to make their trip worthwile (hell, just BEING at Elysburg makes the trip worthwhile).

    Your data is a bit skewed because there were 700 or 800 shooters who showed up just for Friday's Krieghoff event, waited to see if they would shoot off for the gun, and then went home... many of them shot penalty just to register a score... so they drove down your per capita analysis of high handicap scores.

    I think the mid west big guns avoid Elysburg because of the money and the timing during the season. The scores were top notch.

    Listen... Elysburg is simply one of the best places in the country to shoot... they absolutely set the standard. As for the big guns? Shaeffer, Vendel, Sandler and the Ohyes are as good as they come... they're all likely to be future hall of famers... and they were all at PA...

    Walker
     
  20. wdr-NY

    wdr-NY TS Member

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    One more thing... I hear a lot about the bank preferences and such at PA. I was talking with Dylan Darhower (nope, I'm not afraid to drop names at all) after he ran 200 straight during the Colonial Classic (for those of you who don't go to PA, the Colonial Classic is the first two days of the State Shoot) and he told me very matter of factly that he only shoots bank three and because he shoots with a State Delegate, he has no problems getting his bank. I have absolutely no problem with this. None whatsoever.

    There are only two crappy banks at Elysburg... 11 and 12. Every other field is amazing in its own way. I giggle at the folks who would pass up the opportunity to spend a week in Elysburg, PA, simply because they can't shoot with their full squad on 1,2 or 3 at a certain time of day. Simply ridiculous.

    Is bank preference to a select group of favorites real at PA? Yup. Is it unfair? I don't really think so... simply because there are so many other GREAT banks to shoot at the facility. I say quit bitching.

    One last note... in Cicero, the NYSATA uses a lottery system to select the starting banks each morning before the first event. So presquadding makes no sense. Our system in NY is TERRIBLE and sparks much more bitching than the preference shown to benefactors at PA. If you want to make sure that you're not shooting next to the practice trap or next to the road on bank 7, then you have to squad EVERY single morning AFTER they do the lottery. We have 3 squadding windows, no automated system and the lines are LOOOONG and SLOOOOOW. (that's not to say that Cicero doesn't have its up sides... like money in the options and good targets...)

    So... leave Elysburg alone. The folks there are incredible and the facility is top friggin notch.

    Like my pop always says... if you're in the center of the target and you have trigger control, the wind, lighting and the trap machines are all at your mercy.

    Walker
     
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