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Hang fire

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by ntgr8, Apr 4, 2010.

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  1. ntgr8

    ntgr8 Member

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    Shooter calls for target, gun clicks (heard by several shooters) no bang.
    shooter raises head and lowers gun about 1 sec maybe 2 ---- BANG.
    Lost target????? No one knows if target was still in the air when the gun fired,
    all were looking at the shooter. Should it be lost or is there some other call???
     
  2. michshooter

    michshooter TS Member

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    I would call it a Failure to Fire, so mark the score sheet and if it was the first or second incident, allow the shooter to shoot another target.

    ....Paul
     
  3. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Paul- The gun fired so it cannot be considered a failure to fire. The scorer must determine if the target was still in the air. If the target was in the air and the shooter was lucky and broke the target, it would be scored dead. So if he missed the target, it should be scored lost. Life is not always fair.

    Pat Ireland
     
  4. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    Ditto Pat!
     
  5. shotgunpeople

    shotgunpeople Active Member

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    I won a shoot one time because of just that same thing happening to an All American.

    I witnessed it, as did all the rest of the people, and he turned around and said to the scorer.."Lost Target"..It was #198..What a way to have to loose but he was a real gentleman about it..A week later he found a broken spring in his gun during the preliminary week at the Grand...He went on to win HOA at the Grand that year...Guess his loosing to me didn't shake him up at all...LOL

    Dave in SC
     
  6. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    A hang fire could develop into a dangerous situation in less than a heartbeat on the line! There's no set time for the load to ignite and actually fire. Maybe we should treat this malady as we would any other malfunction? That instead of using the "gun fired" as a tool to take away a target?

    If no one was looking at the clay, how would you know whether or not it was still airborne?

    Hap
     
  7. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    I dunno, Pat.

    I would score it as a failure to fire because (1) when the shooter pulled the trigger to shoot at the target the gun did "fail to fire" and (2) although the gun may have discharged while the target was still in the air, the shooter was not in control of the discharge.

    MK
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    MK- But the rule book specifically addresses this. If a shot is fired while the target is in the air, the results must be scored. If I were scoring and I did not do my job well and watch the target, I probably would give the benefit of doubt to the shooter, and rule that the target had hit the ground.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    I realize what the wording of the rule book is, Pat, but I think that there is a relevant difference between "firing a shot" and the gun "discharging on its own".

    In this case, when the trigger was pulled no shot was fired. According to the account, the shooter then dismounted the gun. At that moment that series of events constituted a failure to fire. Whatever occurred subsequently is a separate action and new matter completely.
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    MK
     
  10. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    So where does the rule under Section IV I Safety page 17 Sub Paragraph #9 come in? If that rule had been observed at the time this discussion wouldn't be happening right now.

    Bob Lawless
     
  11. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    I think that rule overlooks the fact that shooter gives up control over the direction of discharged shell pieces by opening the gun. And I don't think it would have made any difference in this case.

    According to the OP, the gun "clicked". Assuming that the firing pin had already struck the primer, the ignition process was underway inside the hull. Opening the gun would have simply allowed the primer and ignited gases to be blown back out of the hull into the shooter's face or hand when the powder finally ignited a few seconds later.

    MK
     
  12. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Unknown1 just a question not a slam. Why is it when someone give you a rule you make it about what you think it is? Not what the rule says it is supposed to be just what you think it is.

    I don't see anywhere in the rulebook that says this is the rule as long as everyone agrees. If they don't agree then it becomes an argument not a rule.

    Bob Lawless
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    MK- Your statement describing the "gun discharging on its own" impresses me as the gun consciously making a decision to fire. That is OK with me. I am not opposed to anthropomorphism when it comes to my gun.

    Your argument seems to be based on the time interval between pulling the trigger and the gun firing. Would a hammer or sear hanging up for a 1/2 second also be a failure to fire. We are still faced with the rule that states if the gun is fired while the target is in the air, the results must be scored.

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    <blockquote>"Unknown1 just a question not a slam. Why is it when someone give you a rule you make it about what you think it is? Not what the rule says it is supposed to be just what you think it is."</blockquote>

    Interpretation of the law is why the Supreme Courts exists or have you forgotten their recent ruling interpreting the scope of the 2nd Amendment?

    The text of the rule and the interpretation of the text are different things and despite what you are accusing me of, I'm not changing the rule to suit myself. The rule says what it says but its meaning comes from how what it says is interpreted. I'm pointing out that the text of the rule can be interpreted in different ways depending on which definitions are applied to some of its terms. Since no definitions are specified, all interpretations are equally valid. And any rule that can be interpreted in more than one way can't be enforced fairly and objectively. The regulatory process then becomes arbitrary, subjective and inconsistent.


    MK
     
  15. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    <blockquote>"Your argument seems to be based on the time interval between pulling the trigger and the gun firing. Would a hammer or sear hanging up for a 1/2 second also be a failure to fire."</blockquote>

    No, it wouldn't be. The difference is that the OP reported that the shooter had dismounted the gun, effectively ending his attempt to fire at the target. Then the faulty shell went off out of the control of the shooter after he had failed at his attempt to fire it.

    MK
     
  16. ntgr8

    ntgr8 Member

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