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Handicapping "known ability"

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by jdsfarms, Feb 15, 2010.

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  1. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

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    This came up on another thread and is really a seperate topic so I thought I should start a new thread.When you handicap how much consideration do you give to the known ability rule.I think at the local shoots I go to for the most part the handicappers are very good about using known ability but there is always that shooter who shoots a big score in a lower class and people are asking how did he get in that class.Seems like "C" class is the break where big scores begin being noticed if you shoot in the upper 3 classes it usually takes a high 90's or perfect score to win.Most shooters do a good job of helping handicappers and I hear a lot of shooter requst to be classed appropriately even if there average is lower,I changed my shooting style a while back and my average dropped to a class lower than my ability but I was always appropriately classed to my known ability,I have never shot a "AA" average but was once classes "AA" after a string of wins in "A" class it seemed a little harsh at the time but I shot 100 straight the next day,I lost in a shootoff but the handicapper was "Spot on".Jerry
     
  2. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    Handicapping

    Applying 'known ability' when classifying is tricky and tends to ruffle feathers but yes there is a place for it. As you have noticed, anyone can have a good shooting day at any shoot. But when a person strings a few good days together, bumping them up a class is reasonable even if their average hasn't caught up yet. Also, I believe the only way to improve is to shoot with/against better shooters. I think you are seeing that and taking it in stride.
     
  3. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Handicapping

    Something else to consider while shooting in C class if a shooter has a good day where does good day stop?

    If a shooter is at the bottom of C class(88% in a five class system and 86 in a six class system)has a good day which could mean 11 or more targets above his average. Can you do that is B or A class? No why, because you don't have that many targets over your average to break.

    Does that mean that you should be in AA class well "Known Ability" doesn't say so it becomes a judgment call Jerry the classifier was spot on in your case. They may have been just as spot off if your scores had gone the other way. I have seen the discussions about situations that require known ability where the people complaining wanted to band any shooter that shot a high 90's score from that class for life. One score, Jerry how many wins are you talking about in that string. Surely more than one.

    Bob Lawless
     
  4. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

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    Handicapping

    1 win in "B" with a 97,2 wins in "A" with a 97 and a 98 in 1100 targets at the time my average was 95.6 Jerry
     
  5. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Handicapping

    As I said more than one.

    Bob Lawless
     
  6. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

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    yes more than one thats why I called it a string in my first post.Jerry
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Handicapping

    Proper classification does require some judgment. At the Southern Grand next month, the three year shooting history of every trophy winner on Monday and Tuesday will be reviewed. Some will be moved up a class and others will not be moved. Beginning Wednesday, every trophy winner will be moved up. Ties are treated as wins when reclassification is considered.

    Classification works well, but occasionally, the classifier can make a mistake. It is the shooters responsibility to make certain he is classified correctly. I recall one time when an obvious B doubles shooter was mistakenly classified as C. He was high in class C, but when he was reviewed he was moved up to B and he did not win the C trophy. He was not happy, but the responsibility for correct classification rests with the shooter.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    Handicapping

    <I>"Classification works well, but occasionally, the classifier can make a mistake. It is the shooters responsibility to make certain he is classified correctly. ... but the responsibility for correct classification rests with the shooter."</I>

    That makes absolutely no sense at all. Don'[t make me responsible for the decision someone else is empowered to make. That's like saying that it's the violator's responsibility to decide what his fine should be. If proper classification is going to be held the shooter's responsibility, why have other people do the classifying? Why not let shooters simply declare what their class should be?

    MK
     
  9. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    Handicapping

    Why bother with averages at all if the classifyer is going to pick and choose which scores he/she will use to determine class? jdsfarms, with an average of 95.6 you should not have been put in "B" class in the first place because you were carrying an "A" average.JRM
     
  10. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

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    Handicapping

    The win I had in "B" class was early in the year and my average was less but I was moved to "A" class after that win.Jerry
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    MK- It may make no sense to you but it is in the rule book.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Great answer Pat. HMB
     
  13. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Unknown1 if you tell the classifier that he has put you in B class and you belong in A and he tells you well you are shooting B class just the same. It is your responsibility to make sure that the person in charge of the shoot know what has transpired.

    If he say that the classifier has the final say you have choices. If they give you a ration later you will end up being the one that is wrong.

    Bob Lawless
     
  14. Doug Brown

    Doug Brown Well-Known Member

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    Handicapping

    Handicapping is an imperfect science. IMO-I believe known ability is not used often enough. You have to look hard at the last 500 targets & try to make the correct call. But also beware, there are always 1 or 2 people, who will try & sneak into a big shoot & shoot short yardage. These people are usually very good in another shooting discipline & know the trapshooting program/rules very well.
     
  15. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Handicapping

    Using known ability for handicapping a shooter should be for prior wins, not a couple of lucky "hot day" scores at some podunk shoot with 14 shooters.

    Hap
     
  16. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Handicapping

    MK. I understand about your confusion in interpreting the rule about self-classification. In this day and age many sports ignore the sportsman(women)'s rules of honor. Trapshooting holds itself up to a higher standard than most other sports. It is much like golf in that you are supposed to expose and enforce the rules when you know them to have been applied in error.

    Most sports rely on referees to make those decisions and they are to stand, as called. In baseball I know, very well, that I was out several times when sliding into the base but the umpire called me safe. Since baseball doesn't hold itself to the high standards that golf and trapshooting expects from it's participants, if I just shut up the wrong decision will stand and everybody thinks it's OK. Same for football, tennis and on and on.

    Some have improved the way calls are made by technology, ie, instant replay review, etc. but we don't have that luxury in trapshooting. This thread winds all through our rules. Your supposed to know, according to the rule book and the program what class and yardage you are and it is your responsibility to assure that there is no mistake made by classification. It's you responsibility to make sure that you don't take a target if you know you missed it. It is your responsibility to call a target that you saw a piece, no matter how small.

    It's all a matter of HONOR. I like that our sport is an honorable sport. We need to keep it that way and continue to be one of the few sports of gentlepeople. I like being honest and that those who know me can rely that what score, class or yardage I'm in is correct when posted.
     
  17. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

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    Hap I agree that wins should be a bigger factor than a few high scores but by the same token a couple of wrecks or shooting in poor conditions should not allow a shooter to drop a class.I won the "B" doubles once in very poor conditions with a 72 and the "A" winner shot a 69 that would not be reflected appropriately in classifying if you were using average only it may actually put you in a lower class.It seems that between the info on the shooters card(3 yrs Avg.,wins,ties and the current years scores)and a current average book and access to the ATA shooter information center a handicapper has plenty of information to determine known ability.Jerry
     
  18. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Handicapping

    jdsfarms. That's what know ability is all about. You should give that kind of information to the classifier while they're making the decision.
     
  19. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

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    Barry,I also agree that the other info that is readily available to the handicapper is the shooter themselves and any info they can provide or questions they can answer.Jerry
     
  20. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

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    Handicapping

    classifying shooters has to be one of the hardest most thankless jobs that there is. we would like to all say that all shooters our honorable, but as in any sport, when money is at stake, honor sometimes gets put on the back burner. a friend of mine has always said if a classifyer is not going by the shooters average on the card, why even have average cards? over the years i have been to some clubs that go strickley by your average on the card. then there are some clubs who remember that 10 years ago you won a set of drinking glasses and they are more than willing to install "known ability".

    the problem with known ability is not everyone seems to be hit with known ability when they should be at a shoot. i have seen the "good old boy network classify themselves at the handicapping table were there is abuse. one of our long time handicappers will chase down a shooter to change his class should he find out the shooter was not classified as high as he wanted. but this same handicaper shoots in class C for the past 40 years and has had the high score in handicap at the state shoot.

    WE NEED TO TAKE THE HANDICAPPING OUT OF THE HANDS OF THE AVERAGE GUY, or take it out of the hands of the guy who has an agenda for certain shooters. with all the technical advances that we have, we need to have a computer, or computers, that when you put in your ATA #', it shows the amount of wins you have, and base your class by that, instead of your average.

    until that day comes, i suggest go by the average on the card. if not, why even have them. usually the shooter that gets penalized is a shooter who might of had a hot day. the quickest way to lose honest shooters is by over handicapping. it doesn't take long before shooters get to know the real sandbaggers. penny annie shoots are not the place to call someone out for known ability. save that for the big money shoot if you want. we are all kidding ourselves if we think we will stop all types of sandbagging.
    steve balistreri
     
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