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Handicap System

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by ChetH, Mar 26, 2009.

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  1. ChetH

    ChetH Member

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    It is quite common to see threads here regarding the ATA Handicap System and ways to improve it. My belief is that the Handicap System exists to provide each of us with the illusion that we have an equal chance to win. At least those who are capable of 100x100 from some yardage. It is a sad fact that no system, or at least no system that is likely to be adopted, is going to make a champion of a shooter that can only muster a 93.

    Since I began registering targets as a callow youth some 40 years ago, the breaking of 100x100 from the 27 yard line has gone from a rare and wonderful occurance to one that may pass unnoticed. We all know the reasons for this, better ammuntion, better equipment, and the rise of a cadre of folks who have mastered our sport.

    From time to time there have been calls to increase the maximum yardage to 30 or even more. I believe that the time may actually have come.

    But, let me go a little farther. Before we ask our clubs, who are already financially stressed, to spend money to pour concrete, let's make a very cheap and simple change.

    I propose that the ATA add more spots to punch on our Handicap Cards. In fact, they should add 3 yards beyond the concrete poured at any member club. This would eliminate the sham 'honorary' punch. The next time a 27 yard shooter earns a punch, they get it. This has the property of treating all shooters the same.

    When a newly minted 28 or more yard shooter shows up to enter, if the club has enough concrete, then no change. Except they get to enjoy their new yardage, the same as anyone else. If the club doesn't, the shooter will be given the opportunity to shoot from the club's maximum yardage. Those targets should count towards target requirements for other shoots, but the shooter may not participate in purses, added money, trophies, or All-American Points. It would be much the same as when a shooter who has not met the target requirement is allowed to shoot from their punched yardage, but not particiapate in the competition.

    They should also be given the opportunity to donate to the club's captial improvement fund.

    I would be happy to hear why this is a dumb idea, please include how many 'honorary' punches you have earned in your replies.

    chet hendrickson
    21-04285
     
  2. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    I think it's a good idea...........
     
  3. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Interesting!!
     
  4. jhoward

    jhoward Member

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    Is it fair to force some shooters to shoot from different yardages every week based upon how much concrete a club has? A shooter that gets punched to the 30 yard line might shoot from the 30 one week and the 27 the next based upon where he's at. For some shooters, they may never get to shoot from 30 yards until they get to a major shoot. If your home club is a smaller club and only has concrete to the 27 yard line, then you go to one of the satellite Grands and suddenly you're shooting from 3 yards farther back? That hardly seems fair.
     
  5. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Bush league.
     
  6. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    jhoward is it fair that we make the majority of handicap shooters to shoot against a minority of high average shooters at all the major shoots?

    If not why do we do it all year long at all the major shoots every year and it doesn't seem to make anyone worry. So why should this proposed system make anyone worry about fairness?

    Bob Lawless
     
  7. rick979

    rick979 Active Member

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    Then I would get stuck on the 28 or 29 yard line. Hell, the 27 hurts bad enough. I don't think I could stand the pain. YIKES!!! Rick Kipp
     
  8. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    rick979

    "Then I would get stuck on the 28 or 29 yard line."

    The only way you would get "stuck" on the 28 or 29 is if you don't get a 1000 target review. Or you refuse a reduction.

    Bob Lawless
     
  9. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    No. Just like any other hcp system they should get birds deducted. A 96 ave shooter should lose 2 birds regardless of his score and a 94 average shoooter lose .05 bird per 100 birds.

    96 = (-2)

    95 = (-1)

    94 = (-.5)

    93 = (- 0)

    It is flawed. Yes. But the yardage thing is doomed. Get over it and think out of the box.
     
  10. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    All you bright golfer types, extrapolate the above in golfer numbers. I can do it but I need to cook dinner.
     
  11. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Chet, what you propose is about the same as when the max was moved from 25 to 27 yards. If the clubs max yardage was maxed at the 25, either shoot there or somewhere else. That was the choices available to 27 yard shooters then but most of elite current 27 yard shooters wouldn't want to stoop to such heights? Bush league Barry? I don't think so unless "bush league" means a tougher shooting format? Hap
     
  12. Justin L.

    Justin L. Member

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    So let's say someone is shooting for their average to make a state team, do their scores that they shot at a shorter yardage count towards their average? How come so many people are saying the long yardage people can enjoy their new yardage every week like everyone else? If they were getting it every week they'd be standing on the 27, too....
     
  13. J.Woolsey

    J.Woolsey Member

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    And the same ones bellyache about Obama wanting to spread the wealth. I'm with Mr. Roach on this. The present system might not be perfect, but it darn sure dosen't give any unfair advantage to a 27 yd. shooter. How about them 18 yd. boys? Think they have a chance? Wait till the Grand, bet you see some fantastic shooting from them also.
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    MIA

    "No. Just like any other hcp system they should get birds deducted. A 96 ave shooter should lose 2 birds regardless of his score and a 94 average shoooter lose .05 bird per 100 birds."

    Jack this is not to my way of thinking fair. If a shooter any shooter shoots the best score and has part of his score taken away from him. There is nothing fair about it. By the same token if a short yardage shooter is given targets to help make up the difference. He win by the the margin he was given he has won nothing. No matter what is given or taken away a 96 will never beat a 98 anywhere other than on paper and if these type of handicap systems are adopted I will no longer shoot.

    "But the yardage thing is doomed. Get over it and think out of the box."

    Jack why is it doomed just because you say so?


    Bob Lawless
     
  15. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    MIA has it right, use the golf handicap system for trap shooting. But instead of taking birds away from the good shooters give birds to the weak shooters. How many? That depends on their average, we could try 80% of the difference between their average and 100. And limit their highest score to a 100. Keep the yardage rules the same and see what happens. HMB
     
  16. J.Woolsey

    J.Woolsey Member

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    Are we forgetting that this year the Average Joe's are allowed 3 reductions per year. They can move all the way up to the 18 yd line. Anyone who can shoot a 97 or 98 from the 16 ought to be able to duplicate the task from the 18. And my bet is you are going to be griping about them before too long. Darned "Sandbaggers"
     
  17. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    hmb

    "MIA has it right, use the golf handicap system for trap shooting. But instead of taking birds away from the good shooters give birds to the weak shooters. How many? That depends on their average, we could try 80% of the difference between their average and 100."

    I have an idea why don't we just put everyone name in a hat and draw the winner. It would be a lot easier and a lot less paper work and figuring averages and handicaps for everyone.

    After all if you have to give everyone something to make them competitive then it really isn't that important. If the association has to give me something to make the field level then I personally will not shoot handicap again. As far as earned yardage is concerned if they give targets to someone or take targets away from someone there will be no earned yardage just a gift.

    Bob Lawless
     
  18. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Chet based his idea on this supposition: " My belief is that the Handicap System exists to provide each of us with the illusion that we have an equal chance to win." I see no possibility that anyone could doubt that the current handicap system does not at least do this. So if the basic objective described by Chet is clearly now fulfilled, why would he want to make any change?

    Others want to apply the handicap system used by golfers. Fortunately, I do not play golf. Some shooters who do play golf have told me stories about the golf handicap system. They have major problems that we do not want.

    Pat Ireland
     
  19. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Bob. We are not in disagreement. Rather I was just trying to get us off the 30 yard concept that we have beat to death. But let's look further


    Let us go back to a Golf type model

    a 80 average shooter gets 5 extra birds to shoot at

    a 85 average shooter gets 4 extra birds

    a 88 average shooter gets 3

    a 91 shooter gets 2

    a 93 gets 1

    Max score would still be 100 but if I use me as an example, my two best hcp scores last year were 89s form the 26 yard line and my average was in the low 80s, so on those days I would have been given 5 extra birds to shoot at and count towards my days score.

    Where this system would be helpful is when I shot a really good score of 93 or 94 and actually had a chance at getting a 98 or 99 and winning.

    You could still have the yardage system in conjunction with this and my average card would show that I am a "5 handicap"
     
  20. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "Let us go back to a Golf type model"

    Jack you can go back to the Golf model all you want I won't have any part of it. I have been involved in to many different things that were determined by numbers given to the participant and you never actually see the true out come of the sport/game.

    Sorry No thank you.

    Bob Lawless
     
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