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Handicap System & Rule changes to trophies.

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by jimbotrap, Apr 25, 2007.

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  1. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    I could not help but read all the comments posted on the SW Grand Handicap Score Etc. Thread.

    One must be aware in addition to the current punch and review system. The ATA a couple years ago implemented a rule as shown in Section E, paragraph 5, on page 29 of the current rule book. In summary. "Any shooter receiving a punch of 1 1/2 yards in a single event will not be allowed a reduction for a periods of 2 YEARS". For all those that comment about shooters turning down reductions many of us willing accept reductions but given this rule we are penalized beyond our abilities. In my opinion this is a rule directed towards the "dreaded Sandbagger" but will serve to penalize many honest shooters.

    And recently a rule was implemented allowing category shooters to shoot only for championship titles, and if they should desire the opportunity to shoot for runnerup and/or open placement trophies they must forfiet the right to shoot for the category. Again for the life of me I do not understand what the ATA is attempting to do. Are they politly saying the Sub Juniors, Juniors, Women, Veterans and Senior Veterans "you are not welcome"?????

    These rule are changes in a system that has been in place for years. Again in
    my personal opinion these should be eliminated and in fact a complete change in the handicap system be made. Take out the mandatory punch system, eccept for let's say 98's or better (then only 1 yard) except per the attendance punch rules. I know many do not feel mandatory reductions are necessary so I will forgo making that suggestion, but still believe a better system should be put in place. - Jim Elliott (just a tired old grumpy Sen. Vet. that cares a great deal about this sport and those that participate, or should I say enjoy it).
     
  2. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    Jim

    You're misinterpreting the rule change regarding category shooters. ATA Rule X, D, 3 says:

    A special category shooter may shoot off for event champion
    only and fall back to a category trophy but must declare the intent
    to do so prior to the shoot off. A special category shooter who
    enters a shoot off for any runner up or any place trophy must
    complete the shoot off and accept the result and may not “fall
    back” to a category or class trophy(ies) unless he/she lost the
    shoot off for Runner Up or Place. Example: A junior shooter is tied
    with two (2) other shooters for 3rd, 4th and 5th place. If that junior enters
    the shoot off he/she cannot fall back to any category trophy as he/she
    is guaranteed a trophy when he/she enters the shoot off. A junior
    shooter tied for event champion and place with proper notification may
    shoot off for event champion lose the shoot off and then fall back to a
    category trophy....

    The new rule simply adds yet another option for category shooters. Nothing was taken away.
     
  3. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    As Tom stated, you aren't reading that new shootoff rule correctly. The latest change you are talking about was actually made to ease-off on the requirements for the category shooters.
     
  4. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    I may beg to differ with you. For as long as I can remember a category shooter would be allowed to shoot off for championship and runnerup in any championship eveny ie: Grand, Satellite Grand, State and zones. He/she could not shoot for class trophies unless declaring same. The same was inorder for program placements in Handicap. ie: Champion plus any additional placement trophies 2nd through whatever, but again would not be allowed to shoot for yardage event trophies unless so declared.

    In other words the new rule restricts category shooters. They can shoot for championship and then either category or placement awards. In many cases this eliminate other category shooters from receiving awards. Why???

    If I am wrong please explain to how I am wrong. I will make note I have received category trophies at the Grand that I would not have been able to.
    Again I am not really concerned for myself, I will most likely shoot for a championship only, selecting to fall back in the event I fail to win championship (which I have done on several occasions).
     
  5. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Jim, I don't have the rulebook in front of me but this is what I think applies.

    Category shooters can shoot for championship trophies, lose, and drop back to category if they declare before the shootoff that they are only shooting for the championship, even if they are otherwise eligible for a place trophy. If they enter a shootoff for place trophies, and they lose any chance at those, they still can fall back to the category trophy. If they enter a shootoff involving place trophies, and win one of these trophies, they must accept the place trophy and cannot fallback to category.

    I'm pretty sure I'm correct on the above.

    I believe the rule immediately before the most recent change required category shooters to accept any trophy won in the shootoff, in other words they could not state they were shooting only for the Championship, intending to fall back to category if they lost, when they would have been eligible for a place trophy. That is why I said the most current change was an easing of the requirements.
     
  6. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    Jim, the new rule makes no change in regard to category shooters' options in shooting off for class/yardage trophies, or falling back to category or class/yardage if they lose the shootoff for champion and place(s). The only change is that category shooters now have an additional option to shoot off for just the championship trophy, and then fall back to the category trophy if unsuccessful.

    ATA Rule X, D, 2 has not been changed:

    A contestant whose score qualifies them for more than one (1) ATA trophy must notify shoot management which trophy he/she desires to accept or shoot off for. Failure of the contestant to notify shoot management within fifteen (15) minutes after the last events scores are posted gives shoot management the right and imposes on them the duty
    to make the determination for that shooter. Shoot management shall consider special category trophies superior to class trophies.

    Tom Stewart, President

    Michigan Trapshooting Association
     
  7. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Tom: I'll leave the class/yardage issues out since it is already complicated enough, although I agree with you on those points.

    I think where Jim is getting the impression that the new rule is more restrictive is because he missed some intervening rule changes. Some years ago, a category shooter could shoot off for championship or place trophies, and still fall back to category, just like he seems to be talking about. Then a rule change was made that the category shooter could still enter a shootoff for championship and place trophies, BUT he had to accept any trophy won in that shootoff. Example: if he shotoff for Champ and lost, but was eligible for the 3rd place trophy after the shootoff, he was required to take the 3rd place trophy. He could not fallback to Vet Champ after entering the champion/place shootoff, unless he lost out on all of the champ/place trophies in the shootoff.

    He now can declare he is only shooting off only for Champion even when eligible for place trophies, lose the shootoff for champion with a score that would otherwise have won him the 3rd place trophy, and fall back to category. He could not have done this under the immediately preceding rule.
     
  8. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    Tom - I must admit I am confused with the new ruling. The way I interpret it a category shooter can shoot for championship. But he/she must declare before the shootoff if he/she wants to shoot for placement OR Category. I do not believe they still have the right to shoot for placement and then fall back if they they fail. Granted if they win a placement trophy then they must accept that trophy. (A shooter can elect to shoot for championship only with the right to fall back to category). That never changed. Maybe someone like Neil Winston can clear this matter up.

    Not to seem argumentative (which I guess I am) but I still fail to see the rule changes in handicap setting time limits on reductions due to high scores. I wish someone that has been involved would answer this question as well. - Jim
     
  9. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    "A special category shooter who enters a shoot off for any runner up or any place trophy must complete the shoot off and accept the result and may not “fall back” to a category or class trophy(ies) UNLESS HE/SHE LOST THE SHOOT OFF for Runner Up or Place."

    Jim, that is a quote from Tom's post of the rule above. I added the caps to show that there is no question you can fall back after losing out on a place trophy shootoff.
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Jim, 870 and Tom are correct. Let me cite an example of how this works.

    At the Iowa State Shoot in 2006, a lady and a vet scored perfect 200's in the singles championship. There were three trophies: Champion, runner-up, and third. Under last year's rule, if either had lost the Championship and runner-up spots but taken third, he/she would have been required to take that third place trophy.

    But, they asked, who remembers third place? Isn't category winner a much-preferred slot? So they passed on the shootoff, not getting a chance to win the championship their scores put them in contention for rather than risk ending up worse off, namely third.

    The requirement that a choice must be made beforehand is at least a decade old. The required declaration for class or category before the championship shootoff is just carrying on what's always been done.

    Roger, did you protest to shoot management? What did they say?

    Neil
     
  11. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    Roger

    It appears the fifteen minute rule was misinterpreted in your case two years ago. That rule basically applies to a shooter's obligation to notify shoot management of his choice of accepting (or shooting off for) either a category or class/yardage trophy when high in each.

    Nothing in the rules requires you to shoot off for championship or place(s), and you don't lose anything if you do. When you were notified of the shootoff, you should have been told you could shoot off, or take the A trophy. If you chose to shoot off and didn't win, you should have been awarded the A trophy at that point.

    Here's an example of how the fifteen minute rule can affect a shooter in the situation you outlined, though. If tied for high in Vet and all alone at the top in A, the shooter would be required to shoot off for the Vet trophy if they didn't notify mangement within fifteen minutes of the end of the event that they wanted the A trophy . However, the solution is to not squad late in one event, and early in the next.

    (Please note that these ATA Rules apply ony to ATA trophies.)
     
  12. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    Thanks Neil - I am still a little confused, but inasmuch it does not affect me I will accept your explanation.

    Neil - Why was the 2 year ban on handicap yardage reductions put in place. Simply shooting a 1 1/2 yard punch score may not even get you the time of day.
    Why penalize a shooter for 2 years? Also if I am correct if a person shoots a punch score at the Grand the 2 year rule also applies, is that correct. - Jim
     
  13. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Roger -

    You got hosed - new or old rule! A lone winning score in class should always get you at least a class trophy (if you don't get something out of the shoot-off for overall).

    I got in a shoot-off for a class trophy at a local club one time, me and a lady. I ended up winning the shoot-off, then found out afterwards that they gave her the ladies trophy. According to the rules she was supposed to pick either class or category and you can't fall back from one to the other.

    Scott
     
  14. motrap

    motrap Member

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    Scott .......... It is difficult to explain the myriad of situations that can occur almost as many as #8's in an 1 1/8 oz. load.

    In your situation ....... The ATA makes it clear that the rule you are following is for ATA Trophies only (trophies donated by the ATA.) It is unlikely that the ATA donated trophies to a "local club", and most smaller shoots and some larger ones DO allow the fall-back for/to, any/all trophies the shooter would qualify for. An example is the Missouri State Shoot, where some of the Championship Event Trophies are donated/supplied by the ATA.

    For these ATA trophies the MTA adheres to the ATA rules, requiring the shooter to declare whether they are going to shoot-off for Class or Category, and not falling-back (win or lose)to the other. OR, If qualifying to shoot-off for Event Champion, declaring, in advance, whether they are shooting for Champion, and Runner-Up, and Place(s), accepting any trophy earned, and not falling-back to either Class or Category (unless they are shut-out from all of these trophies, whereby they may fall-back to Class or Category); OR declaring, in advance, their desire to shoot for Champion only, and if not winning Champion, WILL NOT ACCEPT any other place, THEN WILL fall-back to Class or Category.

    For ALL of the rest of the trophies, being MTA (NOT ATA), a shooter may shoot-off for all trophies they qualify for, systematically falling-back to whatever they choose. The only rule with reference to this process, is if they shoot-off and win, they MUST accept it! .............. Rudy
     
  15. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    I'll ask a different one here.

    What happens in regard to "Open" trophies? Say you are tied for event champ, place and your class trophies. Ignore any category matters. After shootoff, can you be forced to take an open trophy (say open champ) instead of your resident zone class trophy if you lost out on resident champ and place in the shootoff and open champ and resident class are available?
     
  16. drunk_again

    drunk_again TS Member

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    what about us early 40 something white boys, what special category can we chose from???
     
  17. motrap

    motrap Member

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    870 ........... There are no "OPEN" trophies provided by the ATA ......... They would be governed by the individual shoot management of each shoot.
     
  18. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Motrap, yes, and I have never seen any program discussing it. Not a big deal, just was wondering if it had ever come up. My view is that a resident should be able to choose resident trophy, even class, over an open place trophy if he wants.

    If mgmt defaults to ATA rules, which I seem to see most often, it gets complicated. I would hope that by stating you want resident trophy over open if possible, that would be good enough.
     
  19. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    I have seen comments regarding singles and doubles. But I have not seen any explanations to the 2 year penalty imposed for scores requiring punches of 1 1/2 yards or more. Is there any person out there that has an answer for this? - Jim
     
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