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Handicap System Not Broken!!!!!

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Hauser, Aug 17, 2009.

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  1. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    This is for those that think the current handicap system is not broken.


    Here is data from the first 6 handicap events shot at this years Grand beginning with event 2 (Pat Lamont Handicap) and ending with event 16 (Bruce reed Handicap).


    There were 598 punches given for a total of 569 yards.


    27 yard shooters received 346 punches or 57.8% of the total.


    The next highest yardage group was the 25 yard group who received 42 punches or 7.7% of the total.


    Punches by score.

    100-------7


    99--------38


    98--------97


    97--------168


    96--------288


    There were a total of 456 punches given for scores of 96 and 97.


    If it weren’t for yardage and category trophies none of these scores would have won a trophy.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  2. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Hauser

    "There were a total of 456 punches given for scores of 96 and 97. If it weren’t for yardage and category trophies none of these scores would have won a trophy."

    Jerry if these facts had been the same 20 years ago and the scores had finished out of the Trophy pool would the yardage payoffs then have been any different.

    If so how would changing the system relieve the bottle neck of elite shooters at the fence. The only thing that has changed from the glory days of the three hole target is the scores at the fence, The yardage payout for the scores has been the same for a long, long time.

    Bob Lawless
     
  3. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Bob


    I shot the Grand 4 times in the 70s and there were no yardage trophies given. The mere fact there are yardage trophies today is an admission the handicap system is out of order. In the 1975 GAH there were 3700+ entries with 22 shooters including category shooters winning trophies.


    This year there were 100+ trophies awarded including 5 yardage groups with 5 trophies awarded to each group.


    To answer your question we are not going to change the elite shooters at the back fence but we can make it harder for them to win. Additionally we need to slow the number of shooters getting to 27 yards. We can do both by implementing the following:

    1)Change the automatic punch provision and eliminate 96s and 97s from the earned yardage table. This will slow the number of shooters reaching the 27.

    2)Phase in the 44 degree included minimum angle target at all shoots where the ATA gives trophies over a 3 year period.


    a. First year the Grand


    b. Second year the Grand and all Zone shoot.


    c. Third year all shoots where the ATA donates trophies .


    Jerry Hauer
     
  4. motrap

    motrap Member

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    Bob, I don't completely understand your point .........

    but, I think another way of stating Hauser's point ..........

    (although it is good to recognize accomplishments within your peer groups as in category trophies, these trophies should be incidental to shooting winning scores against the field)

    ....... the whole concept of the Handicap System is to keep people competing by making them feel competitive .......

    why do we further handicap shooters by awarding yardage for NON-WINNING scores [i.e; most/many of the 456 punches out of 598 for 96's and 97's THAT DID NOT WIN]......

    and NOT further handicap MOST of the WINNING SCORES of 98, 99, & 100 [because they were shot by 27 yarders?]

    Explain again, why it is even remotely justified (and makes ANY sense what-so-ever) to; further handicap by a yard or more; a 9 year old kid on the 19 yard line, a 33 year old woman on the 21 yard line, and an 87 year old man on the 22 yard line; and NOT further handicap a 39 year old Trapshooting All-American on the 27 yard line; if they all broke a 97 in the same event ....... ? DUH ...... go figure ........

    for the good of trapshooting ......... Rudy
     
  5. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Jerry and Rudy I didn't make any mention of category or yardage trophies. All I asked is if 20 years ago there were.

    "There were a total of 456 punches given for scores of 96 and 97."

    Would the earned yardage payouts have been any different, Period if so how would the elimination of these yardage payout alleviate the problem.

    Jerry admitted that the problem is at the 27yd line by saying we need to slow the number of shooters getting to 27 yards. If the problem is at 27yds then why not move the fence?

    But from what both of you have to say the best way to fix it is stop people from getting there. I do not however understand how this will help. You are both advocating taking away one of the incentives for a lot of shooters to even shoot handicap.

    Rudy it is your opinion that as you said.

    "Explain again, why it is even remotely justified (and makes ANY sense what-so-ever) to; further handicap by a yard or more; a 9 year old kid on the 19 yard line, a 33 year old woman on the 21 yard line, and an 87 year old man on the 22 yard line; and NOT further handicap a 39 year old Trapshooting All-American on the 27 yard line; if they all broke a 97 in the same event ....... ? DUH ...... go figure ........"

    I don't know what yardage you shoot Rudy I do however know that Jerry is a 27yd shooter and at won point in his career his average was on a par with todays All Americans. Yet you say it is isn't justified to further handicap shooters who shoot the same score as a 27yd shooter and not further handicap him. DUH I would think the answer to that would be to also handicap the 27yd shooter.

    As far as I am concerned if you are going to fix the problem then fix it don't give it a Band-Aid.

    I have seen all the proposals make them shoot less shot, 3 hole targets etc, etc, etc. The handicap system work by moving the shooters back as the become more proficient you shoot a certain score or win an event you go back until you reach 27. Then it stops why because the a lot of clubs don't have the room to move the fence back? Or the club can't afford to extend the walk ways or any number of excuses "Band-Aids"

    Bob Lawless
     
  6. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    To make the game easier and bring more people into the sport like yourself.
     
  7. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    The handicap system wasn't broke but now it is at the Grand.

    The handicap system at the Grand, with all the yardage groups is now nothing but a hybrid classification system. Handicap should not have classes for trophies. It's ok for money divisions but not for trophies.
     
  8. Milkbone

    Milkbone TS Member

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    Barry make a good point. The fact that there are yardage group awards proves that the handicap system doesn't do that adequately. Yardage groups are a band aid trying in vain to cover up an increasingly gaping wound. Now I'm waiting for Bob to quote me.
     
  9. mr.mark

    mr.mark Member

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    I'm apparently the only one who believes the handicap system was put in place so on that event everyone competes against each other on "level playing field" so to speak, that is the reason the better shooters shoot from farther back.

    Therefore all the prizes and prize money should be paid to the high overall shooters of the entire handicap event.

    The calcutta on handicap events is about the only place to make enough money to recover entry fees on a shoot because nobody seems to play the options anymore.

    Most people at the smaller shoots get in the calcutta because they believe that they have a chance on a somewhat more level playing field against all the big dogs.

    At least these have been my observations

    Mr. Mark
     
  10. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Handicap is a "high scores" thing. If you're truly a 20 yd. line shooter that's your protection from the 27 yd. line shooter. If the handicap system is broken because you can't beat the so-called "big dogs" your problem is with them.

    The only way you're going to "fix" that is by segregating the "big dogs" from the rest of us and that is to separate the trophies from the money. Take all the added money and the options out of the programs for the guys there for the trophies. Then make the shooters who want to play the money declare themselves as Pros. No trophies for them. They don't want trophies, they want money. Every one that declares themselves pros must shoot from the 27.

    This will eliminate most of the sandbagging. We don't need those folks anyway. This will provide for the pro class that some think will help the game.......and this will give you a choice of just how deep you want to play the game.
     
  11. backfenceata

    backfenceata TS Member

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    Barry, I like your thinking on this one. This may just be the best way yet to get the true blue collar, weekend shooter back in the game. If you would get a grass roots petition started to give to the ATA, I would sign up and also help to circulate one. Kirk
     
  12. brigade

    brigade TS Member

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    The Handicap Fix- max. shot shell 7/8oz. and mandatory reduction....Ed
     
  13. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    likes-to-shoot


    In my opinion yardage trophies are a symptom of a dis-functional handicap system. If the system were working as it should there would be no need for them.


    Bob


    I agree the best possible fix would be increasing the maximum handicap yardage
    however I don't think they would endorse that approach given the cost.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Jerry all I can say is if they are going to fix it then, fix it half way measures are not an option. As far as cost is concerned BOO HOO I can't believe that most clubs can't find a way.

    No one stopped it when they went to 27 from 25.

    Bob Lawless
     
  15. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Addendum: You won't find many of the Big Dog Pro's endorsing my idea. They wont talk about it here and they wont like it at all.

    I know many of the premier shooters in the ATA and I risk losing them as friends with this idea but it's the Amateur Trapshooting Association and it's for the greatest number of members.

    Additional yardage wont help, they'll still kick all of our butts. The only way to protect the amateurs from the pros is to segregate them. They will be forced to start a professional program that will work for them and eventually be good for them. They wont be able to hide in the warm folds of the ATA any longer.

    Make no mistake. We need those heros of professionalism. The best will continue to get their subsidies from the gun and ammunition companies as they have now and their value to the sport will rise to those companies. They'll be ok. Don't worry about them, they're not worrying about you. They are interested in the money and that's what pro's do. We will still need them in the sport and should support their efforts to evolve.
     
  16. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    Barry

    We sure don't agree on much, but the idea of separating the money and trophies is a good idea in my mind. I like the idea of all who wants to shoot for the money must do so on the 27, or maybe a modified version 25-27.

    Mark Rounds
     
  17. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    A simple solution would be to increase target speed to 60 mph and a minimum of 60 yards...

    Singles also.

    Doubles 50 mph and 50 yds.

    Let's get some sport back into the game.

    Curt
     
  18. scooterbum

    scooterbum Active Member

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    It would seem the 7/8 oz load would cure alot of the problems, in one fell swoop. 7/8 is a joy to shoot, and would cause all to incur a greater degree of difficulty. Yard lines would matter. Windy days would matter. Being on shorter yardage could be a benefit, as designed. Competition would be restarted. Options would become more active again. The playing field just might be more leveled, where one's good day might be rewarded, instead of just being an "also ran". It would make the more professional shooters on long yardage work harder, just as shorter yardage shooters have to.

    And, as Barry was indicating above about the pros, this just might be enough to keep them competing in our ranks.

    It just seems like a win-win situation. It would be great to test it.

    I can also see where the 27 shooter might take exception to it. But, again, what is the alternative?

    If all are shooting the same payload, then wherein lies the complaint?
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Jerry, I don't have much from your cited year of 1975, but here's some, written in the unmatched style of Betty Ann Foxworthy.

    "Dan Bonillas smashes all existing handicap average records from any yardage as he piles up a .9501 average on 8050 targets in 1975. It not only marks the highest average ever recorded from the 27-line, but it is the first time in history that any competitor has averaged more than 75% from any yardage."

    During the 1975 target year, Dan Bonillas earned 55 yards of real estate...

    (First 100 straight from the 27 at the Grand American)

    "He also set a long-run handicap record of 275. . ."

    That was the year Roger Smith had a singles average of .9961 with 400 at Reno's Golden West Grand, finishing the year with a low score of 197.

    If I can move to 1974 instead of 1975, the GAH was won by my friend John Steffan of Minnesota with a 99.

    There were 20 trophies given, much in line with what you wrote.

    The top ten (all the place trophies) went like this

    99 (24.5)

    99 (20.5)

    98 (26.6) (Randy Voss, Minnesota)

    98 (20)

    all the rest are 98's as well, from 21, 21.5, 25, 23, 20, 25.

    So the winning scores have only inched a bird or so in 35 years, but the yardage of the people carding those scores is way, way up. It may be that the automatic punches account for this, or it may be something else.

    Neil
     
  20. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    longshooter

    "If all are shooting the same payload, then wherein lies the complaint?"

    A pointed question so tell us in your opinion if everyone can now shoot 1 1/8Oz loads then wherein lies the complaint??????

    Bob Lawless
     
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