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Handicap System Not Broken (Part 2)

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Hauser, Aug 18, 2009.

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  1. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    The RJ Steward website has been updated so I was able to complete the analysis of this year Grand handicaps.

    Here is data for all handicap events shot at this years Grand beginning with event 2 (Pat Lamont Handicap) and ending with event 23 (Grand American Handicap).


    There were 1101 punches given for a total of 1007 yards.


    Punches by Yardage.


    18yds-------5--------.45%


    19yds--------24--------2.18%


    20yds--------38--------3.45%


    21yds--------55--------5.00%


    22yds--------59--------5.36%


    23yds--------70--------6.36%


    24yds--------52--------4.72%


    25yds--------80--------7.27%


    26yds--------72--------6.54%


    27yds--------646--------58.67%


    Punches by Score.


    100-------13


    99--------62


    98--------172


    97--------296


    96--------558


    Punches by Event.


    Event # / Entries / Punches / % Punched


    2 / 646 / 50 / 7.74%


    5 / 848 / 52 / 6.13%


    8 / 1206 / 116 / 9.62%


    11 / 1431 / 114 / 7.97%


    13 / 1584 / 157 / 9.91%


    16 / 1683 / 109 / 6.48%


    20 / 1888 / 126 / 6.67%


    21 / 2010 / 157 / 7.81%


    23 / 1960 / 220 / 11.22%


    Notes:


    1) There were a total of 854 punches given for scores of 96 and 97 few of which would have won anything if it weren’t for yardage and category trophies.


    2) There were 94 trophies awarded for the GAH for a field of 1960 shooters compared to the 22 trophies awarded for the same event in 1975 that had 3718 entries.



    Jerry Hauser
     
  2. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    WOW!! Thank you for the information Jerry. Why do I play targets only when I can only muster a low 90's score from the 23 yard? As I've gotten older I've not got any better, but I think I'm a little brighter. LOL. Have fun while we can, Bob
     
  3. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    Hauser

    I would say the Grand American statistics look pretty normal...close to 10-1 punches in favor of the 27 yard line. If you ran the stats on state, zone and other large money shoots, I think you would find about the same results.

    Mark Rounds
     
  4. jbbor

    jbbor Active Member

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    For the life of me, I can't see where any changes are needed in our sport. We are prospering more so than at any time in our history. We just need to look at the sport of skeet, as we are emulating them now, to know we are on the correct path to ever increasing participation and membership. Neil is correct in his opposition to any modification without "extensive, long and arduous" testing. Jimmy Borum
     
  5. scooterbum

    scooterbum Active Member

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    jbbor,

    If no changes are needed, then why mention.....modification.....testing?

    Living in denial can kill.
     
  6. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Jerry, thank you very much for the fascinating information.
     
  7. texasaggie2000

    texasaggie2000 Member

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    Any idea how many shooters from each group were in the population? I would think this information would be necessary to make any conclusions regarding this data.

    I would also think it would be interesting to know how many folks were shooting penalty yardage and how they did.
     
  8. Milkbone

    Milkbone TS Member

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    Jimmy was being faceous.
     
  9. scooterbum

    scooterbum Active Member

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    ("Jimmy was being faceous.")

    Thank you so much for pointing that out. I didn't know the person, or his position. Thanks again.

    Longshooter
     
  10. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Hauser I am just curious how did you get this information did you compile it yourself or did you find it on RJ Stuart's website?

    Bob Lawless
     
  11. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Downloaded it from RL Stewart into Excel, then sorted the data.



    Jerry Hauser
     
  12. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Jerry thanks for the information.

    Bob Lawless
     
  13. Hill topper

    Hill topper Member

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    Hauser,

    Glad to see you on here again

    Always glad to read your postings as you have been there and done it.

    Interesting data.

    ed.
     
  14. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    From Jerry's first post:" There were 94 trophies awarded for the GAH for a field of 1960 shooters compared to the 22 trophies awarded for the same event in 1975 that had 3718 entries."

    Considering all the other discussions about 27 yarders dominating the Handicap Event and the low payouts for Options etc. it seems to me that awarding all these additional trophies is the right thing to do. Going to the Grand and having a chance to bring home a trophy sounds a lot better to me than the "good old days".
     
  15. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    miketmx


    The reason I pointed out the number of trophies given this year vs. 1975 was to draw attention to how dis-functional the current handicap system is.


    If the EC felt the current handicap system was working as intended they could have simply added the trophies assigned to yardage groups to the general event population.


    There were 5 yardage groups defined with 5 trophies award to each group. They could have simply awarded trophies for 16th trough 40th place instead of awarding them to yardage groups.


    They didn't do that because the majority of the trophies would have been awarded to 27 yard shooters.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  16. insight

    insight TS Member

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    Jerry

    You have some good ideas...If you could have your ATA delegate obtain the percentage of shooter by yardage group for this years grand, you could put this information together and sent a copy to all the ATA delegates for them to review...A follow up call to Gary Sher...from Texas would be a nice touch...And maybe some of the others on the EC team...

    This would be the way to go in trying and make changes in the ATA. This form is a good sounding board, however they do not make the changes...

    Also sending it to all the state associations for there review would bring the topic up at one of there board meetings...Live discussions is how change is brought about...

    That is how change will take place, if that is what you are looking for...otherwise you are looking like you are living in the past...This process could take a few years...the organization moves slow...

    Sending a copy of your finding to Trap and Field for publishing would be another step you could take to get it out to the shooters in general...
     
  17. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Jerry, I actually agree with you on both counts that the current Handicap System is dys-functional and that Hole 3 targets are better; If I make it til Christmas I will be a Senior Vet, and I don't realistically see any change happening in my remaining years so I might as well enjoy the game and hope to collect a yardage group trophy.
     
  18. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Jerry, I see a lot of statistics but what's your solution?
     
  19. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Barry


    1) Eliminate the automatic punch provision of the earned yardage table.


    2) Return to the 44 degree included angle target requirements.



    There are clearly other suggestions that have merit but none that have any past history.


    I've consistently suggested the change to the flight and angle requirements because we have history that indicates it works, it doesn't cost anything, and it can be implemented tomorrow.


    Hope you are well


    Jerry Hauser
     
  20. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Jerry,
    I agree with the automatic punch solution. I also believe in mandatory reductions. I am a firm believer that we should do what is the best for the shooter and yardage reviews and mandatory reductions help shooters be more competitive. For those who want to shoot with their long yardage friends I have no solution other than to say that "you are what you are." The review/reduction system works. If you get close to not being able to shoot with your long yardage buddies then maybe you'll see this as an "incentive system" and force yourself to do better. Determination is a strong human trait. We must stop lying to ourselves then complaining about not being competitive.

    When we went back to the 44 degree targets in Neil Crausbay's presidency it caused a great deal of controversy as well as big decline in target participation and membership roles. There were other circumstances that affected that fact but most blamed it on "people want to shoot good scores." I believe the leader of that charge was Neil Winston. Given more time I think we would have adjusted but money talks and a...a....., you know.

    In the former case I have to go along with Neil. People do want to shoot good scores and the two hole target, that came out of the west in the late 70"s, helped folks do just that. It is my opinion that the 44 degree target penalizes the shorter yard and the casual shooters far more than it does the so called pros.

    That said I believe that going back to the 44 degree target would be trading a poor situation for one that may be worse. Thanks for the dialog...................Barry
     
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