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Handi Cap Tenure

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by brigade, Jul 12, 2009.

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  1. brigade

    brigade TS Member

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    Does it mean once one has achieved the 27 yd.line they can homestead this position ? If this is the case, how does this represent ones ability in this particular discipline ? When one can not continue to sustain the ability to compete at that level why would ATA give them the choice to stay where they obviously can not be competitive ? Ed
     
  2. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Denny, could it have some effect on yardage group added money percentages by shear numbers at the largest shoot? Of course it won't have any other effect on who shoots where, it's no one else's business, unless that shooter is under handicapped? Hap
     
  3. brigade

    brigade TS Member

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    The Literalist

    With all due respect, I would like my questions answered or at least a valiant effort made, that is why I started the thread. Mandatory reductions should be an "ATA rule" to keep the handicap discipline competitive.
     
  4. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    If we handicapped many shooters to the 16 yard line, they would still not be competitive. Most shooters go to shoots to have fun. This is quite different from being competitive. If I am offered a reduction (I certainly need more than one) than I will make my decision for me. I do not want to make the decision for you. I would much rather tell you what shells you had to shoot than where you had to shoot them.

    Pat Ireland
     
  5. stokinpls

    stokinpls Well-Known Member

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    You would think the would have mandatory reductions since they aren't bashfull about passing out punches, especially 1/2 yd. ones that you don't really deserve either. You don't even win the event and you get a 1/2 yd punch(es) until you're no longer competitive. Sound like an excellent way to discourage starting shooters to me. You'd think they at least be consistent.
     
  6. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if you had mandatory reductions, would you then actually have sandbaggers?
     
  7. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Brigade has spoken . . .

    . . . Mandatory reductions should be an "ATA rule" to keep the handicap discipline competitive.

    Now let it be so!

    I must not have received the memo that left Brigade in charge.

    Scott
     
  8. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    brigade


    It sounds like your new to the game so let me explain that the sport although outwardly a competitive sport also has a very strong social element.


    For example Ive been shooting handicap with the same squad for 8 years. These are people I consider friends and are the main reason I shoot. If the ATA were to make reductions mandatory and I was forced to move to the 24 and not be able to shoot with them anymore Id quit shooting. There are many ATA shooters that feel the same as I do.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  9. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    At the risk of upsetting people, again I say, eliminate our presnt "Handicap" system, set up 22 and 27 yard events, open to all shooters, handicapped with the AA thru D system used on 16's, and rid ourselves of all this grief.
     
  10. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    brigade

    "With all due respect, I would like my questions answered or at least a valiant effort made, that is why I started the thread."

    Ed with all due respect to you your question is being answered you just don't seem to listening. The ATA has rules it tells you that you can't shoot in front of your assigned yardage. It also tells us we can't shoot behind our assigned yardage either it tells us that our yardage is assigned to us and can only be changed by review, penalty, earning more or by the CHC.

    If I have earned my way to any yardage are you now telling us that the ATA should have a bigger say in what I have earned? I want to know where does it stop? Will they then be able to tell me how much of any money I might earn I can keep?

    My question to you is if I am the guy who shot the scores that get me to the yardage I want to be at. How can anyone take away from me what I have earned the ATA didn't shoot the scores that put the 27yd shooter where he is he did. Would you know tell him that his scores are no longer any good? He must know forget the past high points of his shooting career and move off of what he has earned what no one has given him.

    I will ask again when are his accomplishments his if the system is changed to mandatory reductions what has the shooter actually accomplishing? If the shooter chooses to stay where he is not competitive he is only one taking himself out of the game not anyone else he is the only one not competitive. It is his choice not the ATA's or yours.

    Bob Lawless
     
  11. Milkbone

    Milkbone TS Member

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    I beg to differ but it certainly is the ATA's choice since they make the rules. The ATA could indeed make yardage reductions every bit as mandatory as yardage increases are. Personally, I think they should be the same- voluntary. If a shooter can turn down a yardage decrease, why not the reverse?
     
  12. brigade

    brigade TS Member

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    Bob L.

    Wouldn't it be a lot easier to admit that the 27 yd. line IS Homestead exemption ? Ed
     
  13. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

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    A "homestead exemption" refers to the protection afforded real estate that is used as the residence of a debtor from attachment by creditors; or a reduction in property tax for property used as a personal residence. With respect to trapshooting, it has no meaning whatsoever.
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    brigade

    "Wouldn't it be a lot easier to admit that the 27 yd. line IS Homestead exemption"

    First of all I have no idea what that is or how it applies to shooting handicap trap. So do me a favor talk English I answered your question in plain English. I did not use terms that belong in other aspects of life we are talking about shooting and a shooters accomplishments.

    Dogfood say he doesn't agree well why am I not surprised I have yet to post anything that he has agreed with. Come to think of it I can't think of anything he has ever posted that isn't negative.

    I will say that if the ATA decides to make reductions mandatory I will not participate in any shape or form in ATA activates any longer. Anyone that knows me know I work with more than one club in my association. To try to make it easier for the shooters and that would stop.

    Bob Lawless
     
  15. brigade

    brigade TS Member

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    When an Individual has recorded 2000 rds.for the current year of handicap with 80%
    success(if that is what you want to call it to be polite) rate from the 27yd.line, this Individual is no longer competitive from this yardage. If the percentage of one's ability is not to be used in handicap then why bother! In the other disciplines % is used for class designation and when one slumps for whatever reason they are reduced to a lower class. The ATA handicap system in my opinion is welfare. When a shooter posts a record as the one above I have described and refuses a reduction, in my opinion, they have Homesteaded the 27yd.line,using real estate that they no longer deserve, welfare. Ed
     
  16. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    brigade

    "The ATA handicap system in my opinion is welfare. When a shooter posts a record as the one above I have described and refuses a reduction, in my opinion, they have Homesteaded the 27yd.line,using real estate that they no longer deserve, welfare."

    Now remember you are the one that brought real estate into the discussion. If your next door neighbor (this will not apply to all neighborhoods) bought the house next thirty tears ago his property used to be a show place his yard was the closest thing to manicured you can have. Now how ever he mows his lawn and tries to keep the property up but he just can't keep it like he used to. Do you feel he no longer deserves his real estate? Do you think you or anyone has the right to take it away from him because he isn't what he once was?

    I fully understand there is a difference in shooting and real estate. There is however no difference in the principle behind the argument. You further stated.

    "this Individual is no longer competitive from this yardage. If the percentage of one's ability is not to be used in handicap then why bother!"

    Well tell me if we force him to take a reduction what will we accomplish will it make anyone else a better shooter? Will it make the rest of the 27yd shooter any better or worse? Will it eliminate a threat to the rest of the shooters in the handicap event? Will it make you feel better and what possible difference can it mean to you to understand why he is still there?

    It seems to me that you are you are pretty interested in another shooters competitiveness. What possible difference could it make to you.

    "If the percentage of one's ability is not to be used in handicap then why bother!"

    As far as I can tell the percentage of one ability is not used. Check it out you are assigned yardage as a new shooter not based on your ability but on the fact you are a new shooter. New male shooters are assigned to the 20yd line and you earn your way back. So how does that effect Ed?

    BTW your likes or dislikes shouldn't effect my handicap yardage.

    Bob Lawless
     
  17. brigade

    brigade TS Member

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    Bobby L.

    I can see this is a sensitive issue for you, by the way what is your success rate from your current EARNED yardage? Ed
     
  18. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    brigade it is not what you think I have never been farther back than 24 1/2 and I never refuse a reduction. In the last five years I have only shot at 800 handicap targets. That however is for reason of my own that are personnel reasons.

    None of this has anything to do however with my insistence that the ATA doesn't need mandatory reductions. It is my belief that the shooters are happiest when they are allowed to decide how to handle their accomplishments.

    When a shooter reaches target attainments of 25,000 or more they are given pins and so forth to acknowledge the accomplishment and no one can take these away when the shooter reaches the 27yd line if you force him to take a reduction are you not taking away his accomplishment?

    You are correct it is a sensitive issue for me because the people I have met in this sport are great people and they deserve to have some things that they can decide on and I believe reductions are one of them.

    Bob Lawless
     
  19. Milkbone

    Milkbone TS Member

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    Bobbie

    "Dogfood (Milkbone?) say (should be says or said) he doesn't agree (needs a comma here) well why am I not surprised (a period would be appropriate here) I have yet to post anything that he has agreed with. Come to think of it I can't think of anything he has ever posted that isn't negative (perhaps you need to think harder).

    Milkbone

    "Bobie, I'm sorry to interrupt your filibuster and I know how it upsets you so for anybody to disagree with you, but I did make a positive suggestion which is to make both yardage increases and reductions voluntary. In case you didn't catch it, this constitutes at least partial agreement with you, the professional expert.

    Thank you for allowing me to participate in your forum, even though you so love to verbally abuse me and the other participants, expecially the ones who disagree with you. You're a peach."
     
  20. brigade

    brigade TS Member

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    Bobby L.
    800 HC in 5yrs!!!!!!!

    "When a shooter reaches target attainments of 25,000 or more they are given pins and so forth to acknowledge the accomplishment and no one can take these away when the shooter reaches the 27yd line if you force him to take a reduction are you not taking away his accomplishment?"
    NO. By not maintaining the same level that got them to the 27 or 23yd.line they have done this to themselves. 800 HC's in five years, you have answered the question beyond a reasonable doubt. Justify it to yourself however you like- Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Sonny Jorgensen, Roger Staubach, Dan Marino and Troy Aikman had to take their reduction but they NEVER gave up their accomplishments. The current ATA HC system is welfare for those that can not maintain the same level that got them off the 20 yd.line and refuse a reduction. Handi Cap Tenure, plain and simple.
     
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