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GUNCLUB VELOCITY TEST

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by LMac, Jun 22, 2007.

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  1. LMac

    LMac TS Member

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    Decided to check the speed of my reloads yesterday. Friend has a Chrono so thought I would check my favorite load I use for games. Boy was I surprised!! I am using Gun club hulls, 1 1/8 oz. #6 shot, Rem. RXP 12 wad, 22 grains of Green Dot,Win 209 Primer. Alliant data chart says this would give me 1250 fps. First shot thru the Chrono registered 1377 fps. Thought the Chrono was wrong. Shot three more and they registered 1340-1360 fps. I then shot some factory loads through and they were 10-20 fps. as shown on the box.

    My question is, are my reloads that much off with respect to the data chart and am I in a danger zone here, because my data chart doesn't even have a recipe for 13-- useing Green Dot powder. Just a little concerned about this. Thanks for any info about this. Lonnie
     
  2. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Your posting is a little (very) misleading being as it states "Testing Gun Club Velocity" when in fact you are testing your reloads velocity in a gun club hull ... We have tested "Gun Clubs" on a chrono and get close to whats marked on the boxes they came in unless they were sitting in the sun on the dash of the truck and then they are considerable faster ... These were not reloads but were new factory shells which has nothing to do with any reload which means the componants can be changed by the person who is reloading them and that can make a hell of a difference ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  3. Mac V

    Mac V Guest

    My bet is that you're using a consumer-type chrono. These chronos measure the speed of only the lead pellet. They are notorious for recording higher readings than the plate-type chronographs that the powder manufacturers use which measure the speed of the whole shot load. And it doesn't surprise me that the factory loads were closer to the specs on the box...there are a number of things, including the difference in barrels, that would account for the differences.
     
  4. XT Bill

    XT Bill TS Member

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    Exactly what I have found !!!! Same components, to the letter ! I was using 21gr., and they were WAY hot !

    Back off to 19gr, and re-check. That will get you closer to 1200fps.

    I have been told to allow 30fps over desired speed for our consumer chrono's, as they do clock the first pellet, as opposed to the center of the shot string.

    Number of reloads on the hulls has some effect as well.

    Bill
     
  5. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    It's a great illustration of the variables encountered when reloading. Even when you follow the loading data to the letter, you can encounter variations in velocity AND pressure. You can easily measure velocity, but pressure is an unknown unless you have the hardware to do it. Inductive screens are more accurate with shotshells than are "Light" screens. I don't usually encounter a difference of 100 fps or more. It's always a good idea to check the velocity and to pattern your loads to see just what it is you are loading. There's nothing like loading up ten flats of something and then finding out it's not even close to what you wanted, or performs so dismally it can't be used for much except scaring birds out of the tree tops. By the way, I have found that a more open choke gives me more consistency when using a chronograph. Your mileage may vary.
     
  6. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    I'm not sure but I think Neil Winston had some very presise and complete reloading data on various shells, not sure if the Remington Gun Clubs were included or not ... I'd will say it didn't sound like he did anything in his testing half assed so his data would probably be as good as any ... You can probably do a search and find it if you are interested in doing so ... The information you will get from it is probably more that you really want to know, but thats how he does things complete with charts and graphs ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  7. LMac

    LMac TS Member

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    I appreciate the info , I just expected the load to be closer to what the data sheet said. I have found this load to shoot well from my gun and trusted the data to be close. If I hadn't tried the factory shells and seen they were pretty close I would think there was a problem with Chrono, must be my reloading. LOL Quack Shot hit the nail on the head when he said nothing like loading up a bunch shells thinking they are great and truth is they are really not what I wanted. They did pattern good from two different guns. Figured out to be 77 to 82 percent at 40 yards. Oh well, if they don't break the birds, maybe they will scare the hell out of them on the way by.

    Did some reading today on reloading components and how they effect the velocity and pressures. Was pretty interesting. Has me wondering about my crimp depth now. LOL Don't have a clue how to check that to see if it is right.
     
  8. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Lonnie Mac

    The usual crimp depth averages somewhere around .060". You can check that with the "depth" gauge end of a dial caliper. It's the part that protrudes out the back end when you open the calipers. It will measure depth pretty well, but it's hard to measure it on plastic. I have a small washer that is about .025" and I drop that in and make a measurement with that in place. I then add it's thickness to what is on the dial caliper, and I've got a good reading. If you don't have a dial caliper, they sell for around $20 for a decent metal one. Don't get a plastic one. They are useless.

    The real kicker is that you have little control over the variables in the different lots of powder, primers, hulls, wads, shot, etc. Temperature is a big one too! A rise of 20-25 degrees in temps can cause all sorts of variation. Usually it's an increase in velocity and pressure. Some combinations are affected more than others. The loading data is usually derived at some standard temperature, which is usually not what you will be shooting at. Cold can affect a load quite significantly too. I test my loads at freezing temps and then at summer temps. I've been known to put loads in the freezer overnight before testing to simulate winter. I will usually note the temperature when chronographing.
     
  9. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    I load almost the same thing. Except I load 20.3 grs. of green Dot in a AA, and 7.5's. I get 1250 +/- 20fps. That's my normal 27 yard load.
     
  10. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    Lonnie just check your crimp depth with a dime it will be close . Remember tjhe more crimp the more PRESSURE
     
  11. joshif

    joshif TS Member

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    You're probably pulling the trigger harder on your reloads than when crono'ing the factory shells....LOL
     
  12. deadapair17

    deadapair17 TS Member

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    I also suspect that you are checking these reloads with some choke in the gun. Try checking the speed of your reload with a gun that you can take the choke out of it (threads). I have found that the tighter the choke, the higher the readings; which are not correct. Good luck, Don
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    KEYBEAR- Do you know where I can find some data on crimp depth vs. pressure? I realize there should be a relationship but I have never seen any data to describes the relationship.

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Pat, you can get a fairly good, although indirect, idea of the effect crimp depth has on pressure by comparing Accurate's Solo 1000 loading data in the 2003 and 2004 reloading manuals. The 2003 data was published using .055" crimps. The 2004 data was prepared using .080" crimps.

    The ballistician who did the testing for the 2004 data said he had to come up with limited data in a hurry, so he decided to test "worst case" loads. He chose "common" wads and decided on .080" crimp depth as worst case. The difference was striking enough to prompt my call to find out if the new manufacturer had changed the formula and made it faster. I was assured that all lots of Solo 1000, wherever they were manufactured were similar enough that loading data from any manual could be safely used with any lot of powder. I had noted the increase in crimp depth before I called, but didn't think that was likely to be the only cause of the increase. I was told it was.

    You can see specific information on page 59 of the original, hardcover edition of the Hodgdon Powder Shotshell Reloading Manual. There they compare the same load varying only crimp depth in .020" increments. For the 7/8oz load tested there was an increase of almost 4000psi going from .030" to .090". It certainly make you wonder about the old timer's advice to put an extra turn on the crimp die in winter to raise pressure.
     
  15. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    Pat Years ago when I was reloading all my shells and money was not in big supply I used a little more crimp as the halls got past four or five reloads . I did this to TRY to keep the velocity up to the first reload . I can,t remember the manual but I have read that after four or five loadings a hull will lose velocity and a little more (deeper) crimp will help .

    KEYBEAR
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    It is worth noting that the Accurate data cited by zzt was done with 7/8 oz. loads, where the weight of the shot is less and therefore the crimp effect greater. In my tests of crimp and 1 1/8 oz. the effect was far smaller.

    If Lonnic Mac had used a cylinder choke, the speed would have read about 30 fps slower. Still, 22 grains of Green Dot is a lot and it's going to give a lot of speed no matter what. Less on Federal hulls, generally, but still they are going to be fast and the effect cited is not specific to Gun Clubs in my opinion.

    Neil
     
  17. Bawana

    Bawana TS Member

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    I shoot and reload STS hulls. I use 700X powder and CCI primers with Clay Buster 1 oz wads. I lost some of my test sheets but not all. I use bushing 28.



    REM STS Light target factory loads

    first test:
    1197
    1192
    1188
    1198
    1178 = 5953 devided by 5 = 1190
    range diff 19



    second test
    1178
    1204
    1185
    1198
    1174 = 5939 dev by5 = 1187
    range diff 30



    third test
    1178
    1201
    1204
    1197
    1167 = 5947 dev 5 = 1189
    range diff 34




    AV
    1190
    1187
    1189 = 3566 dev by 3 = 1188



    Reloads with 28 bushing for a Mec 9000G reloader

    1165
    1184
    1197
    1192
    1186 = 5924 dev 5 = 1184
    diff of 28



    second test
    1166
    1186
    1167
    1171
    1190 = 5880 dev 5 = 1176
    diff of 24



    third test
    1173
    1184
    1193
    1188
    1167 = 5905 dev 5 = 1181
    diff of 26




    AV
    1184
    1176
    1181 = 3541 dev 3 = 1180




    The factory av was 1188 and my reloads are 1180. There is only 8 FPS diff from the two.





    I use an Oehler chrono 35 and I put an air rator for a fish tank on my loader to get the vibrations to help the powder settle in the bushing. That by its self was worth buying. The Rem STS loads are rated at 1145 FPS on the box and you can see what they really are. They are higher. Hope this helps some people here.
     
  18. GoldEx

    GoldEx Active Member

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    Why don't the powder manufacturers list the length barrel or the type of shotgun used to obtain the data they publish like they do the same for rifle and handgun data? Was the barrel ported? Was it backbored? What was the nominal bore diameter? What exactly did they shoot that load out of to get the data they published? Loads vary in performance from gun to gun and should be approached with caution just like rifle data. I have a load that is a real sweetheart in a Remington 700 in .270 Win that will lock up the bolt in a Savage 110 in the same caliber. Subtle differences in chambers can really raise hell with pressures. I have a tried and true load that consistently reads over 100 fps faster out of an old non backbored barrel than a modern one of the same length.

    Jeff
     
  19. Gargoyle!

    Gargoyle! TS Member

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  20. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    GOLDEX Shotguns are not effected like Rifles and Handguns buy barrel length or I should say not as much . You will not see any real difference from a 26 inch barrel and a 30 inch barrel ( maybe 30fps)
     
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