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Gun speed - George Digweed

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Rick Barker, Jun 5, 2009.

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  1. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Mr. Lawless,

    Here is what George Digweed, 3 times World FITASC Champion had to say about the subject in an article in Shotgun Sports, in the January/February 1997 issue. At the time Mr. Digweed was 3 times World FITASC Champion:

    "The position of the hand on the fore end influences the speed of swing."

    Then a series of pictures:
    "The closer the grip to the fore end, the faster the swing.

    "My natural position is quite close to the action. This promotes a free swing and good gun speed." The picture that shows this hand position is slightly behind the center of the forend.

    "For a very fast target I might exaggerate faster without too much extra effort and the risk of losing control." The picture that shows this hand position is end the extreme rear end of the forend,

    "It is very easy to move the gun too fast just as the target itself is
    slowing down. In such a situation I will often change my left hand position, holding well down the fore end. The picture that shows this hand position has his hand at the forward end of the forearm.
     
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  2. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    fred,

    I agree with you. No two people shoot the same (no matter what discpline. They can be taught the safety and the basics, but it is up to the shooter to develop their "Style" This whole rigamore was may fault because I got to typing too fast and and let out a couple words when trying ot explain "gun speed" It really set off a firestorm. Maybe I should have left off the reference to a swat team member holding an AR. Most Police Departments have single fire anyway, but the point is, holding a longgun close to the receiver will increase swing speed, but that is not always a good thing in some target shooting. I fast shoot my targets where as most shooters and many better than me, hit the bird as it levels out. I can't shoot them that way, I will miss the bird if I track it.
     
  3. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    gun speed in my case is a product of trying to beat my X-fire. Works a lot of the time but loses targets as conditions change.
     
  4. birdogs

    birdogs TS Member

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    Interesting! I have always thought that gripping the forened too near the action promoted moving the gun with the arms and not the body.
     
  5. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Rick, You need to see Tron about a bigger lure.......


    [​IMG]
     
  6. EuroJoe

    EuroJoe TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    George Digweed is the most deliberate shooter you will ever see! He never pulls the trigger until he likes what he sees. Superb trigger control.
     
  7. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

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    George Digweed is an anomaly among trapshooters. He winds his body up like a skeet shooter, and he shoots "swing through" on nearly every target. He says that you should come from behind the target to get the line, then pull the trigger when the barrel is on the front of the target, and the gun speed will give you the proper lead.

    The greatest sporting clays shooter in the world- probably of all time.
     
  8. Trab

    Trab TS Member

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    Greatest Shotgun Shooter of All Time.
     
  9. gunner x

    gunner x TS Member

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    Dickgtax, forgive me,Mr. Digweeds method of shooting does not seem to be a anomaly, if fact, it seems to be the method of choice. Locate the line, come from behind, pull/release the trigger. Is not that one of the most productive
    techniques used by Champion trap shooters. I think so. It only goes to show you,whats good for the Goose.

    Sharing,

    Gunnerx
     
  10. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

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    Gunnerx: Of the top sporting clays shooters, none that I know of say they use that method, and none teach it. Matarese, Carlisle, Kruse, Fennel move the gun to the target, and pull away. McGuire, Duffy, and Cherry favor sustained lead.
    The "swing through method" is only recommended for targets that are difficult to see or read the line; or that have gotten the jump on you, and you have to recover to break.

    Digweed uses the swing through method and teaches it as well. The biggest criticism of that method is that it requires such perfect timing.

    Now, this is all what I've read and been told by shooters far more expert than I. Digweed apparently has the level of ability that allows him to be successful using that method.
     
  11. gunner x

    gunner x TS Member

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    Hey Dickgtax,

    Thanks for the additional information. Interesting post. Check out the numerous
    George Digweed web sites. A Trick to everything.

    Thanks for Sharing,

    Gunnerx
     
  12. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    If trap were not a pre-mounted gun sport, we'd probably be using sustained lead or pull away, utilizing insertion of the muzzle in front of the bird.....

    I find that difficult with a premounted gun...
     
  13. JLSO5

    JLSO5 Member

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    In George's newest video he shows the effects on the barrel in relation to where you put your hand. He says the faster you have to swing the gun the closer your hand should be to receiver. He demonstrates with holding the gun in his left hand only and shows how the further you put your hand out the more difficult the gun is to handle.
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Mr. Digweed is a very fine shooter but I have to question his understanding of motion. I fear he might be getting swing speed and swing control a little confused. I am of course that he uses his body, and not his arms to swing the gun.

    If we use a straight pole (broomstick ?) to represent the body and fasten a second rod at a right angle to the body post to represent the gun and a third support set at an angle to our body and gun (arms) as support for the gun pole we can easily see how changing the position of our arms does not affect gun speed as long as we rotate our body.

    I hope someone knows how to draw a diagram so this can be easily illustrated.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

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    The closer front mount makes it easyer to rotate the body quickly. This is why figure skaters pull in their arms when they spin. Digweed is a big man and he can swing a shotgun like a toothpick. If you can swing the gun like he can, and you have very good eyes, swing through works very well.
     
  16. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

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    When I said the Digweed was an anomaly among trapshooters-that was a typo, because I meant to say "sporting clay shooters." Digweed does advocate swinging the gun with the body, primarily the legs and hips. However, he shoots an unmounted gun, so the position of the hands do affect the speed of the gun to a much greater extent than if the butt of the stock were locked into his shoulder and his hands were only along for the ride.
     
  17. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure if I am using what is called "move and shoot" method, but I bring up my gun to my face and as I am doing that, I lean into the gun ever so slightly, looking out past the house and as soon as the gun touchs my cheek, I call for the bird. I am still moving forward, knees bent, when the bird comes out of the house and I then swing my body toward the birds direction if it is not straightaway. Tucking my arms in close to my body seems to help me swing quickly and smoothly. The only way I can keep my arms close in, is if I have my support hand touch both receiver and wood. My trigger hand is pulling the gun into my shoulder, but my support hand is sometimes open and not even gripping the fore-arm. I extend my fore-finger and point at the bird, the gun follows, but I am not using my arms alone, I am moving my whole body and my arms are tucked in close. If I extend my support hand further down the fore-arm towards the muzzle, I cannot move as fast. It works for me.
     
  18. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Sportshot,
    Thanks for the imput, yes, it is move, mount and shoot as you say.

    I am not sure I understand what you are saying about my gun mount being unsafe, but I close my gun as I bring it up, and my finger is not on the trigger until the gun touchs my check, with my barrel about 1 foot above the traphouse. I still have control enough, that I do not shoot until I have identifed the target and it's flight path. I am not shooting at broken or illegal targets either. I can pretty much tell what is what, but I do shoot quick and about the only time I miss is if I lift my head which is caused by my flinching. I have tried release triggers, but I can work with them. Going to a lighter load works best to keep the flinch away. Unless it is extremly windy, I can maintain a 94-95 on singles and 92-94 on handicap with my method and style.
     
  19. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    I think it would only be a nice average if it were a 99.99 from singles and the 27. and I went shooting (ATA) every weekend, which I can't right now. I had a 15 year layoff from trap and have been back at it for about 10 years now. It took me a long time to figure out how to do it again, but I am just now starting to see some results.

    Again, I am not sure what it is I am doing that concerns you, I know a lot of people say I shoot fast (for them). When I close the barrel, it is down range, but below my shoulder, as I bend my knees and move forward. I am so comfortable with my gun fit that when the gun touchs my cheek, I never look at my sights, but I know where the barrel is and it is always down range, above the top of the trap house. I can tell if my gun is not mounted correctly without looking at the beads. I am looking above the house, under my barrel, with a 1-2 foot window. I am able to pull the gun down in case of a mis-mount and start over. When the bird comes out of the house, I see it under my barrel and start moving it in the direction the bird is moving. I suppose some people could call this "spot shooting"???
     
  20. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Pat,

    this is a carryover from another thread... Your correct, a 10 ft pole fixed to a center, rotated around the center, will remain the same at any point on that 10 ft pole...but, the human body has joints consisting of ligaments and tendons (I'm not a doctor, but that will do). These are flexible to a degree. the farther the arm is extended, the greater the resistance to motion by the outward body (the hand). That is what changes the "speed", Just like a golf club trails the rotation of the body in golf....


    Anyway, that's my opinion,

    Jim
     
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