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gun sale in person to a out of state resident

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by cdan12, Feb 3, 2008.

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  1. cdan12

    cdan12 TS Member

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    I sold a gun on gun broker,buyer who lives out of state wants to pick up the gun in person.I know I can legally sell in person to a resident of my state (texas) but am not sure about another state ,anyone know the answer ? thanks Dan Witcher
     
  2. Shooting Jack

    Shooting Jack Active Member

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    If your are selling a personal firearm in state of residence to another resident nothing is required of you. However, it will behoove you to make a bill of sale signed by both of you so the buyer has proof of purchase and you have a record in case a felony is committed with the gun. I live in Georgia and frequently sell guns to people from Alabama, Florida, NC and SC as an FFL dealer. I don't have a state book for Texas and have never seen any special rules for Texas.

    I didn't make myself clear in the above paragraph so made some additions.


    NON-LICENSED RESIDENTS OF THIS STATE:

    MAY acquire long guns and handguns from FFLs licensed in this state.
    MAY dispose of firearms to any FFL.
    MAY acquire from and dispose of personal firearms to non-licensed residents of this state.
    CANNOT acquire from or dispose of firearms to non-licensed resident of any other state.

    NON-LICENSED RESIDENTS FROM ANOTHER STATE:

    MAY dispose of firearms to any FFL.
    MAY acquire longguns only from FFLs licensed in this state, provided the laws of both states are complied with.
    CANNOT acquire handguns.
    CANNOT dispose of firearms to non-licensed individuals.
     
  3. Fast Oil

    Fast Oil TS Member

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    B. UNLICENSED PERSONS


    (B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]


    A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

    [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]



    (B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

    A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

    [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]



    (B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State? [Back]


    A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

    [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]
     
  4. cdan12

    cdan12 TS Member

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    looks like a unlicensed person ,has to transfer to a ffl . Dan Witcher
     
  5. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    As an FFL holder, my take is that you may not, repeat not, sell a firearm to an out of state resident (whether by post or in person) unless either he is a holder of an FFL, or in some cases, if you are the holder of the FFL and are registered in that persons state for business. (this latter is governed both by federal rules and various state rules relating to adjacent states, etc).

    One man's opinion: while this site is a great source of general info (and opinions), it is not a good place for legal advice (including mine) This is particularly true in such areas as firearms laws and regulations, where even an inadvertent violation may result in severe penalties (such as total firearms confiscations, ownership bans, even jail). The ATF has an excellent web site with authoritative answers to many of the questions I see on this site and contacts to find out others. You can also get various legal publications put out by ATF on federal and state laws to help answer questions. I would strongly urge those with questions to use such sources instead of site "opinions"
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    jimrich60- Good advice. After reading your post, I suspect that you give many people good advice.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. cdan12

    cdan12 TS Member

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    thanks for everyones help, Dan Witcher
     
  8. Shooting Jack

    Shooting Jack Active Member

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    Dan, I didn't make myself clear about your question so I corrected it. My first point was that you should always get/provide a bill of sale on any gun transaction just in case a felony is commited with the firearm or even an accidental shooting. It also establishes proof of ownership.

    As an individual it is illegal for you(non-licensed) to sell a firearm to an individual(unlicensed) from another state. Sorry for an confusion I may have created. Jackie B.
     
  9. Haskins Bill

    Haskins Bill TS Member

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    IMHO. I guess the best thing would be to do the deal at your local FFL holder. Give him a twenty or even more to run it through his books and keep everything on the up and up. That way you and the buyer are protected. The FFL will of course have to the NICS check and you will then be secure that this buyer can legally own. JMHO. Bill
     
  10. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    For Bill Haskins (and others on this thread). An out of state sale must be conducted through an FFL holder in the buyers state, not the sellers. Although some states, and some FFL holders require an FFL holder on both ends of the transaction, tho this is not required by Federal law. It is possible for an FFL dealer to sell a firearm directly to an out of state buyer in some cases (must be done in person), but this applies normally only in contiguous states (common border states) which have reciprocal agreements to do so. As as example, as a Wisconsin resident, I can buy a shotgun or rifle in Minnesota or Illinois (not handgun which is specificaly prohibited by the states involved) from a legal dealer in those states if I go there. Not however from a non licensee. But in no state which is not contiguous with Wisconsin either under federal law, or Wisconsin law.

    Again, I would caution all to go to the source for information (that is the ATF and/or local authorities) if you are not positive on how to handle firearms sales.
     
  11. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

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    I have been an FFL dealer for over 30 years.

    You can ALWAYS sell a gun to a non-resident, IF their state is contiguous with the FFL's state.

    Whiz
     
  12. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Whiz it depends what type of gun doesnt it?- you are correct I think on long guns- now that doesnt mean the person can possess it in his own state- that is a differnet matter

    Handgun - no tranfer allowed out of state to a non FFL holder

    Class three-- no transfer allowed I think- out of state

    In our example we dont know where the person is from or what type of gun do we?

    regards from the great state of Iowa

    Gene
     
  13. 682LINY

    682LINY Member

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    some times its not the $ 20 savings,,,its the piece of mind kowing that Hillery wont know what I have,,,so she cant take it away
     
  14. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    Whiz: For others info, I assume you did mean that it is lawful for a dealer (FFL) to sell to contiguous states? It is not true for non-licensees.

    Reference 18 USC Chapter 44 (1968 Gun Control Act, as amended over the years)
    Section 922 (a) (5) "it shall be unlawful - for any person - (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the tranferor knows, or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ....the State in which the tranferor resides......

    State laws vary from state to state and may add to, or place additional requirements, etc in some cases to the above as well.

    For GN7777777:

    You are correct, in that even the contiguous state provisions only apply to long guns.

    But as I have said, advice on this site is neither legal nor binding. It cannot, and will not protect you in case of even an inadvertent violation of the law. And the "advisor" (whether myself or anyone else) will not be the one the law holds liable nor will such advice stand up as a defense in court. So please do yourselves a favor. If in any doubt whatsoever, consult with the ATF and/or local authorities, and follow legal advice. To save a few dollars, or to do it "the easy way" for convenience cannot not be worth the risk of federal charges and only adds to the cause of the anti-gunners.
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I again have concluded that jimrich60 is provide free advice, and he typically charges others a reasonable fee for his advice. He uses phrases that are common when lawyers speak.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

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    I am an FFL, so when I stated that you can sell the gun to a contiguous resident, then yes this is what I meant. I do this, but I personally know my customers as trapshooters. I'd never sell one to a stranger out-of-state. Also, I only sell pistols to CCW's. If they aren't, then head to the Sheriff's Office to get one.

    GNx7: Long guns, of course, that is what this thread was talking about. There are so many state laws and local ordinances, it would take me a month to review them in the BATF Rules book.

    DITTO DREW: I have always said to ALWAYS go through an FFL. If you don't and the gun you sell ends up in a felony, you may be back-peddling with the police and Fed's. You will sleep easier at night, if you go through another FFL.

    I can speak from experience, because the last thing I want is the BATF in their black helicopter over my head.
     
  17. darr

    darr Well-Known Member

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    I can't speak to any other state but Ca. but if you are a resident of Ca. you must got through a FFL regardless of where you buy the gun be it in Ca. or Az. or wherever.

    Darr
     
  18. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    As a follow up to the latest post by Whiz, if you do not know of a local FFL dealer who can/will handle an interstate firearms transaction for you, you may be able to find one at AuctionArms.Com. They maintain a searchable database of FFL holders who will hande firearms transactions. The database is searchable by state, zip code, etc. You can find it at the below address:

    http://www.auctionarms.com/help/FFLNetwork.cfm

    The database lists those FFL holders, the services they will provide, and their fees. An excellent source.
     
  19. slowdp

    slowdp TS Member

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    I bought a long gun from an out of state FFL dealer. He ordered the gun and when I was in his state I picked it up in person. He did all of the paperwork and told me he could sell me anything I wanted except a class III or pistol as long as I picked it up in person. That is the federal law. The law in your state or the state of the sale may be different. The sale becomes a problem when shipped out of state. In this case the gun must be received by an FFL in the state where it is delivered.

    Jimrich60's note to the thread indicates the above.

    Be careful though. The rules may change county to county. One county in Fl (I am told) requires all firearms sales to be completed and processed with the same paperwork that FFL's use when completing a sale. Most folks ignore that rule but I would rather not ignore it.

    I keep a signed document of everyone I sell to no matter what. I want some proof of sale if the gun is used in a crime. Protect yourself first - make a buck after you are protected.

    Contact Silver Dollar. Mike runs a gun shop and I would think he would have an FFL just to get his business permit.
     
  20. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    Following up my previous posts, I think Slowdp's post high lights what I was trying to point out. Even if advice on this legal area from any of us may be correct for each of our own transaction situations, it may not apply in anothers, even if they seem alike. According to some sources, there are more than 116,000 gun laws on the books at this time, from federal, states, counties, cities, etc. None of us can be or should be comfortable that we know what they all are, or in what areas or circumstances they apply. It is often difficult to determine the exact laws just for our own situations. While in no way trying to denigrate the sincere efforts of many to help out on questions, unless you have the legal authority to provide firearms legal guidance, it is simply not a responsible act to authoritatively advise another whose situation and location may be subject to differing laws.

    This is why I emphasised the need for each person, if they do not know the laws, to contact the applicable authories in their area as well as federal to ensure they meet the legal requirements for a firearms transfer for them, whether as a buyer or a seller.
     
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