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Gun Mount/Position of Left Hand

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by phirel, Feb 8, 2008.

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  1. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I listen recently to two shooters discussing the position of there left hand on the forearm (right handed shooters). They concluded that if their left hand is extended to near the end of the forearm, they could point more accurately but if the left hand is closer to the receiver, they could move to the bird faster. I have listened to similar conversations many times.

    I think they are completely wrong unless they move their arms to get the gun to the bird. And, if they do this it makes little difference where their left hand is, they will miss a lot of birds.

    One should move to the bird by keeping the upper body rigid. All movement should be at or below the waist. The position of the left hand will have nothing to do with how fast the gun moves to the target. The speed at which the gun moves to the target is determined by how fast one moves his body below the waist.

    The accuracy in pointing the gun is automatically taken care of for us by our eyes. Our body will point the gun at the object we are looking at and this does not depend on the position of the left hand on the forearm.

    Pat Ireland
     
  2. Gunnerandbabe

    Gunnerandbabe TS Member

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    I put my left hand in the same spot every time. I even try to keep my head down on the stock. Jess
     
  3. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Foot placement may allow you to "cheat" for hard right or hard left by pretwisting your torso. So you might be correct for the game of trap. That won't work in sporting. Moving the left hand back does allow a faster right swing, but theres a point when you sacfifice some control. I could not fully extend my left hand on my 1100, as the forend is quite long compared to my P-gun. Depends on the gun and the game. Some European instructors teach to put the left hand just beyond the balance point.
     
  4. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Setterman- Could you explain how moving the left hand back allows a faster right swing when the left hand and your entire upper body move as a single unit?

    Pat Ireland
     
  5. widomaker

    widomaker TS Member

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    Pat:

    I've seen you shoot and 100X100 was plenty good enough for me. I think I'll try to keep all movement at or below the waste thanks for the tip.

    Martin
     
  6. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Pat,

    I want you to listen very carefully because this is important. You said, "that the accuracy of pointing the gun is automatically taken care of for us by our eyes". Wrong. It is taken care of by your brain. When your conscious mind takes care of it it often times makes mistakes and you miss targets. When the subconscious does the job it will perform the task flawlessly and you will break all the targets. Unconscious shooting = being in the zone, which = happiness. HMB
     
  7. otnot

    otnot Active Member

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    Pat is correct, it won't change the speed of the swing by changing your off hand placement. If your moving your gun with your arms and not your waist and knees your not going to have a very smooth move to the target. You should look like a tank turret. All though there have been times when hunting ducks I have looked more like a contortionist.
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    HMB- I would not disagree with your conclusion. It is certainly not just the eyes. It is the input to the cortical visual center from the optic nerves, then the sensory signals to both the cerebellum and medulla which in turn send out motor signals through descending tracts in the cord to the striated muscles. I was just trying to keep things simple.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Pat, Not all shots in sporting allow the "torso twist". A high/low, Left first, right second pair, with a short window requires a quick recovery without moving your feet or your torso. Cheating the left hand back helps speed the transition. It compacts the radius. Chris Batha preaches that a 45 degree angle between the wrist and the forearm is the best hand location, but I've seen other ranked shooters with far more than that depending on the birds at that station. From what I've seen, I'd say few trap shooters maintain the 45 degree angle, and I'm not about to measure them up. Rosey

    John Rosebrock #9102725
     
  10. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    Historically, conventional wisdom says the upper and lower arm should form an approximate 90-degree angle. This has to assume the arm is of "average" length so there is forearm wood available.

    The 90-degree angle is supposedly the forward arm position that best balances supporting the the weight of the gun and overcoming inertia to get the gun moving during the start of upper body rotation when swings begin.

    Rollin
     
  11. Pipe Layer

    Pipe Layer Well-Known Member

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    Pat,
    Now I know why my squad shoots so slow! We have our hand in the wrong place on the forend.Pat you are dead on about moving the lower body. We always called using the front hand as arm shooting. Some even consider it a flinch.I think you would agree to just try to be constant in the placement.



    Terry
     
  12. mizzou

    mizzou TS Member

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    Pat: If all movement is at or below the waist, how does this move the gun at all? Surely you mean that the upper body moves along with the waist..I don't recall seeing anyone move below the waist unless a flinch in involved..As far as the right hand is concerned, I see a lot of long-limbed fellows reach way out and around the end of the forend..This just has to slow down the swing..The trade off may be more stability..We short-armed guys just reach out until it feels comfortable and not too stretched out..Mizzou
     
  13. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Most people stretching out the leading hand do so more for pointing their finger than anything else. The leading hand is for forward weight support only, doesn't have anything to do with swinging a shotgun or slowing it down unless pushing or pulling it. Extending the leading hand on a 13 pound gun can get mighty tiring! Hap
     
  14. Onceabum

    Onceabum TS Member

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    I was watching Daro Handy shoot back in the 70s. He was shooting a BT-99 at that time. I watched him for three days. He, of course, was shooting left handed. He placed the receiver directly in his right hand. That seemed so awkward to me but I believe he shot three 99s in handicap at that shoot. I don't remember him ever touching the forearm while shooting at a target. This was not long before he went to the 1100.

    Blue
     
  15. buckwheat

    buckwheat TS Member

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    My question relates to position of the left hand in relation to the bottom of the fore end. If we accept that the bottom of the fore end palm up is 180 degrees, wouldn't an offset of 15-30 degrees keep us from having to roll the wrist/elbow under the forend? Sort of like a ergonomic shovel handle?

    Any thoughts?
     
  16. hoggy

    hoggy TS Member

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    Now I know why I miss sometimes. With bad knees and a bad back there's nothing smooth or fluid about my twisting to the bird. Guess to break consistant 100's one has to be in tip top physical condition below the waist.
     
  17. Dahaub

    Dahaub Active Member

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    I know you guys have shot many more thousands of shells than I have. I was shown how to correctly hold my gun by a couple of shooters who have posted many 100 straights though. I was told the balance point of the gun for the fore hand. Booger Bob was talking about Handy? when he said on the BT99 that he held the receiver in his hand and I have a BT99, shoot left, and thats where mine is balanced at. This seems to work for me however I have watched some awfully good shooters that hold their fore-hands a little more foreward than I would. I think its where you get comfortable and accustomed to shooting. Dan
     
  18. mike moncilovich

    mike moncilovich TS Member

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    Now this is the type of thread that this forum is all aboutand the other political bs. left to the bloggerspheres... Mike
     
  19. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    RemGreen- Your statements agree with what many other shooters believe but I contend they could only be correct if you move your arm to the target and not your upper body, as a single unit, to the target. Terry D. accurately described moving your are as "arm shooting" and this is a great mistake. Terry was not accurate in describing how fast his squad shoots.

    Rollin- Overcoming the inertia of the gun prior to beginning a swing is accomplished by muscle force from the lower body, not the left arm.

    Pat Ireland
     
  20. A23B

    A23B TS Member

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    Pat

    If you would think back to the old mechanical governors, the further out they would go in the center the slower they would try and make thinks move.

    I do agree with your thinking that all movement should come from the waist, but from my past experience I have to agree for some reason moving your left hand farther out will slow your swing down.

    -= ed nast =-
     
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