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Gun Malfunction Time Limit

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by timb99, May 14, 2013.

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  1. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    I had always heard that if you had a gun malfunction on the line, you had 4 or 5 minutes to get it repaired and back on the line.

    I have checked the rule book and can find no reference to any time limit.

    Am I missing it, or is the "4 or 5 minutes" just a rule of thumb?

    And further, if you can't get it fixed, must you shoot on your own or try to get in with another squad later?
     
  2. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    That is covered in the shoot program, if it is covered at all.
     
  3. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    I was under the impression you had 15 minutes to fix your gun.
     
  4. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    Years ago there was an entry in the ATA rulebook to cover this.

    A couple years ago a guy I know ran up against the problem and discovered that the ATA had removed the entry and thus the rule.

    The index page from the 2011 rule book, but a check of the page shows no such entry.<center>
    [​IMG]
    </center>

    Keller
     
  5. flashmax

    flashmax Well-Known Member

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    Look under "Failure to Fire"

    D. FAILURE TO FIRE
    The following procedure shall be followed in all tournaments: <BR>
    1. A contestant shall be allowed two (2) failures to fire in Singles and Handicap events, for any reason other than stated in Paragraph C.,2. above, during each sub-event regardless of the length of the sub-event.

    When the first or second allowable Failure to Fire in any sub-event occurs, the contestant shall be allowed to call for and fire at another target, and the result of the shot will be scored in accordance with these Official Rules.

    During shoot-offs for All Around and High Over All events shooters will be allowed 1 Failure to Fire in each of the three (3) disciplines (Singles, Handicap, Doubles).<BR>

    2. A contestant shall be allowed 2 failures to fire, for any reason other than stated in Paragraph C., 2., above, during each Doubles sub-event if the Failure to Fire occurs when the contestant attempts to shoot the first target of a Doubles pair, or when the contestant attempts to shoot the second target of a Doubles pair after the first target has been fired at and broken and would have been scored “DEAD”.

    When the first target of a Doubles pair is fired at and missed and that target would be scored “LOST”, and an allowable “Failure to Fire” occurs on the second
    target, the shooter may shoot another pair. In such a circumstance the shooter must shoot at both targets of the repeat pair but the first target shall be scored “Lost” regardless of the result of the actual shot, the second target shall be scored as shot. (See exception in VII., E., 11.,f.) When the first or second allowable Failure to Fire occurs in any Doubles sub-event, the contestant shall be allowed to call for and fire 30 at another pair of targets and the result of the shots at the new pair will be scored in accordance with these Official Rules.<BR>

    3. Machine-gunning or doubling only occurs in doubles events where two shots are fired with a single operation of the trigger, rendering the competitor incapable of firing at the second target because both shot shells have fired. When a defective gun malfunctions, doubles
    or machine guns whether or not the first target would have been scored “dead” or “lost” and whether or not either target is legal or illegal, the referee/scorer shall rule this occurrence a “failure to fire” and score accordingly.<BR>

    4. Whenever an allowable Failure to Fire as provided in this Rule occurs, the referee/scorer shall mark a large legible F1 on the score sheet in the space where that target is scored along with the score for that target, and also place the same mark beside the total sub-event
    score. After F1 and F2 is in the place where individual targets are scored, any subsequent Failure to Fire in the same sub-event and for any reason, when a target is called and the target appears promptly and within the legal limits of flight, shall be ruled “LOST” and shall be scored accordingly. Cumulative application of the rule is prohibited (failures to fire do not accumulate from sub-event to sub-event), and “sub-event” shall be as defined by Official Rule IV, E.<BR>

    5. Shoot Management is required to examine each score sheet before the score is posted, and any target scored as a Failure to Fire after two (2) allowable Failure to Fire as set forth above, shall be scored “LOST” whether originally scored as “LOST” by the referee/scorer or not.

    Had a man with a BT 100 shooting last weekend. The LOP adjustment setscrew loosened about 60 targets in during the Singles Program. It was his very first ATA registered shoot and since the number of shooters was not that great the others on his squad and the scorekeeper didn't enforce this particular rule but after he had completed his 100 targets I showed him the above section of the rulebook. He asked shoot management about it and management assured him that he was very lucky he had this happen where it did because the scorekeepers weren't well versed in the rules and the other shooters on his squad were tolerant of a new shooter's troubles.

    The next day's program he came back with his trigger tight and tied 4 ways with the high score handicap winners.

    Don Thompson,<BR>
    Littleton CO
     
  6. trapshootin hippie

    trapshootin hippie Well-Known Member

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    Flashmax, how does the rule you quoted relate to the original question? A broken gun is different from a failure to fire, wouldn't ya say?

    GneJ
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully, if you do have a broken gun problem in the first sub-event and use both FTFs and make it out with a 24. Most clubs only allow you to make up fifty targets on the practice traps. SO, your score would read, 24/50 and 50/50 if you break them all on the make-up trap. If it breaks down on you, hopefully its during the 2nd sub-event and not the first. Best to carry your back-up gun, just in case!!

    Hap
     
  8. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    Hap,

    Your example is not correct.

    A shooter cannot be penalized for targets in a sub-event that s/he didn't shoot. So, the shooter in your example should have been scored with no worse than a 74 out of 75 (assuming these are 25-target sub-events.) (See Rule Book Section VII, C, 4.) If they couldn't get the gun fixed and complete the event at all, after having shot and completed the first sub-event, their score would have been 24/25, not 24/100.

    I also disagree that the "rule" that some clubs impose regarding not making up more than 50 targets on the practice trap would apply in your example. That "rule" is generally intended to discourage shooters from deliberately missing their squad so as to shoot on the practice traps. I would hope it wouldn't be imposed in this sort of a situation.

    If the shooter couldn't rejoin his or her squad, or be placed on another squad to finish the last 75 targets, I would hope that shoot management would permit him or her to shoot the remaining 75 targets on the practice traps.
     
  9. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Scott, shot over 4 traps and your correct. 100 shot over two traps is two sub-events. If your gun quits in the first sub-event, what you break is what you get in the first one. That is if your squad continues on without you??

    Fair or not 50 targets is all you can make up at the Grand? Tucson also.

    I hate the 10 per post BS as we used to have here, that and 150 total targets for the singles championship! I'm sure a few clubs must still use the 50/50 format when necessary?

    Hap
     
  10. flashmax

    flashmax Well-Known Member

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    GneJ,

    The original question was broken gun. If your gun breaks you will then have a "Failure to Fire". "Paragraph C2 above" is a deliberate failure to fire;

    2. When a whole target appears promptly after a contestant’s
    recognizable command and is within the legal limits of flight and the
    contestant voluntarily does not fire;

    So ,

    Have a happy,


    Don Thompson, Littleton CO
     
  11. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    I had a situation last year, During the 1st 25/100, after my 15th target, my gun failed to break open... with respect for my fellow contestants, I immediately asked the chair for a moment to see if I could repair the problem and was given "a reasonable amount of time" to correct the problem...

    I ended up acquiring and using a back-up firearm to complete the 25 and subsequently the 100... a somewhat vague term, but that used to be the express policy - no actual period of time was stated...

    Jay
     
  12. smokintom

    smokintom Well-Known Member

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    Allways take a backup gun along.One day you will need it.
     
  13. smokintom

    smokintom Well-Known Member

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    Allways take a backup gun.One day you will need it.
     
  14. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    <blockquote><I>"...and the contestant voluntarily does not fire."</i></blockquote>How the heck is a broken gun a voluntary failure to fire. The shooter already demonstrated his readiness to fire by pulling the trigger and discovering that the gun would not.

    Keller
     
  15. daddiooo

    daddiooo TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Depending on the nature of the problem, 5 minutes give or take a minute or two. With respect to your fellow squad members if it's a simple trigger change
    (ie Perazzi) or spring replacement take the 5 minutes and get back in the action. If it's a more labor intensive repair (broken comb hardware, firing pin on a gun w/o a drop out trigger)then step out and let the squad continue.

    Let courtesy to your squad be your guide. Don't hold them up for 15 minutes, other squads may be backing up behind yours.
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Keller, that "Broken Gun" reference is the written equivalent of a dinosaur bone. Every year at least five people go through revision after revision of the rule book, looking for exactly the sort of thing you have found, but it's lain there for 20 years and remained unnoticed in plain sight.

    It was part of "no target" before about 1992. It was no target when a gun broke and could not be made to fire. When the FTF rule came in, that became moot and and so "broken gun" itself was removed, but not its table of contents entry.

    Neil
     
  17. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks gentlemen. I think that answers my question.

    Tim<br>
    Johannesburg, South Africa
     
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  18. bobdog

    bobdog Active Member

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    Hap, if I understand it correctly, a "sub-event" is targets shot on any one field at one time, with one full rotation on all five (5) posts by each shooter, no matter how many traps are used.

    The rulebook does mention 50 bird sub-events, but if you read it carefully, you can tell that they're talking about the rare case where you're shooting 10 per post. If you're shooting 5 per post, that means four 25 bird sub-events, even if you're shooting 100 birds per trap.
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    . . . or doubles.

    Neil
     
  20. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Bobdog, when I posted my posts above, I didn't cover ALL the ways to determine a sub-event. Here in Tucson, before we added more traps, sometimes it was necessary to shoot 10 per post to accommodate most all the shooters. Sometimes it was over two traps and sometimes three depending on the total shot. 100 targets or 150.

    "The rulebook does mention 50 bird sub-events, but if you read it carefully, you can tell that they're talking about the rare case where you're shooting 10 per post."

    At one time here in Tucson, that wasn't so rare. 10 per post says each 50 is a sub-event up to and including 200 targets shot total.

    In that case, the score you broke during that first 50 targets is what you receive if your gun breaks down and you can't finish it with your squad. Break 12 targets and your gun breaks down in 10 per post, you'd better have your back-up gun handy or it's scored 12/50. Make up your last sub-event on the practice field.

    Remember when doubles were shot,15/10,15/10? That was 4 sub-events. Today, we can shoot the entire 50 pair on one trap, 2 25 pair sub-events.

    I know of no rule covering a time limit for a broken gun to be fixed. When that has happened to me and I knew I wouldn't be able to get it fixed in a few minutes, I pulled out and my squad continued on.

    Hap
     
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