1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Gun Control;Gun Owners Input

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Shipbuilder, Dec 16, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Shipbuilder

    Shipbuilder TS Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    195
    After watching the Sunday morning talk shows it is pretty clear the gun control debate has started.It seems to me there are at least 3 components to this debate:

    1. Gun Control itself,
    2. Mental Health
    3. Media Violence

    We need to get involved and perhaps speak with one voice or as close to consensus as we can get. I am not exactly sure how to do that, but I think each of us needs to think about where we are on the details of each of the 3 categories above.

    Jim
    (ATA and NRA Life Member)
     
  2. crusha

    crusha TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,762
    Excellent post. But I want to add a category, for "School Security."


    1. Gun Control - the only thing I would even remotely consider as beneficial in this case would have been mandatory safe-storage laws, but how do you enforce something like that in the home? You can't. The truth about Gun Control is that we have more right now than we've had at any point in history, except for when the AWB was in effect. Guns have not gotten easier to get. They also haven't gotten "deadlier." The technology used in CT has been available to many decades in the case of the rifle, and 100 years in the case of the pistol. These were legally-acquired guns, bought by someone with no criminal record. "Mental Testing" is subjective, and just becomes a Trojan Horse to undermine the Constitution. There is no law that's been presented by the Pelosis that would have prevented this. This is a dead-end road, and we need to keep people focused in the direction that will actually help. Unless you're going to get rid of half a billion guns, somehow, this is nothing but a feel-good answer. We can do better, and our children deserve better than this familiar cop-out.


    2. Mental Health - there's a profile emerging for these shooters. They're more alike than different. It's now being reported the CT shooter had an altercation with the school officials the day before, and 3 of 4 of them are now dead. These kids put off warning signs. We don't know all the info yet (the media are woefully bad at getting the facts - witness the multiple factual reversals in this story so far), so we'll have to wait for it, but I'll go out and venture that this kid was an outcast, probably drugged for a portion of his youth, family members said his mom was very concerned about him, and I think that's where we need to focus a lot of attention. What resources do we have to help parents in this situation? How do we get people committed for treatment? Nobody wants to live in a hell-hole, but nobody wants a steady diet of these tragedies, either. I'm going to venture another guess, and say that the school officials can't do anything but suggest medication. We're going to have to revisit that, and it's a tricky area, but every time one of these loners falls through the cracks and graduates, we seem to wind up with another 20 dead people down the road. It's clear the parents in these cases were over their heads, and not up to taking responsibility and dealing with their children's problems.


    3. Media Violence - we have a First Amendment in this country, but what we've done with it is a disgrace. Much of this is simply waved away without significant discussion by most of The Left. How about a National Tax on Violent Video Games? Let the Left chew on that one, as the executives for the major "Electronic Entertainment" franchises line up to defend the Billions they make on Grand Theft Auto, Halo, Call of Duty, Zombie Apocalypse, or whatever the flavor of the month may be. My proposal is, the more gratuitous games be regulated the same way we handle pornography; they cannot be purchased by anyone under the age limit, and there's a confiscatory tax applied to each copy sold (let's start the bidding at $50 per disk), with all funds plowed exclusively into Mental Health treatment. I want to see the executives for these Electonic Entertainment companies in front of cameras on Capitol Hill (or is that "Capital" Hill?), getting their feet held to the fire the same way the Big 3 did during the Auto Bailout. You want to trade on mayhem? Fine, your industry just shouldered financial responsibility for a complete re-build of the mental health infrastructure of this nation. Thank you for your public-spirited concern for the common good, and we'll be in touch.


    4. School Security - this has gotten a lot of attention for older kids. But when I look at elementary schools, all I see are glass doors (not all of them even locked most of the time), and a lockdown protocol that doesn't even get activated until someone is already dead and more bullets are on the way. We have to accept that elementary schools are now a target, just like airports. Every elementary superintendent in the country should immediately (tomorrow morning) call for an emergency meeting of the School Board to discuss security, and should walk out of that meeting with unanimous approval to re-direct school levy money to the purchase and installation of solid doors, window barriers, and whatever else is needed to harden these targets, with weekly meetings to review progress and follow up with whatever law-enforcement resources are available to help. Is it time for dedicated Police Resource Officers at schools? I'm off the fence now and ready to say, Yes. Get some of these guys out from behind their radar guns, and into the school, developing a relationship with the kids. Bonus Benefit - your response to discipline issues just got a huge moral boost, also. Is it time for harder entry protocols and metal detectors? Can we really say we've tried everything if we're not doing it? (Put another way - is it easier or harder than removing half a billion firearms from society-at-large?)


    Let's start there, and see if public officials really want to pursue a comprehensive strategy for this problem, or, if they're just going to betray those dead children by sulking back into their comfortable "let's ban guns" mode.


    If you don't like my ideas, please present your own. There should not be a single, solitary, political rant on another thread from someone who is not contributing here.
     
  3. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,676
    Mental illness, TV news, guns. We're seeing "copy cat" killings inspired by
    the attention given to these tragedies by the news media. Eliminate guns, and you'll see them replaced by bombs, doing ten times the damage, as occurs regularly around the world.
     
  4. Mr. Lester

    Mr. Lester Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    132
    One thing that has been shown, is that gun free zones DO NOT WORK !!!
    Lester
     
  5. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,228
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    As we sit here yakin about this tragedy, think about how many millions of youngsters are sitting at theirs playing the killing games?

    Good well thought out post buzz-gun!

    The wacko the shot Gabby Gifford's and killed 6 others here was trouble for a very long time! The school he attended had several bouts with him threatening people yet did nothing to turn him into authorities for such behavior! Attempting to place the total blame on firearms is assinine at best, we need idiot control in the worst way!!

    Hap
     
  6. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,988
    I do like your ideas buzz-gun, I'd only add that it's about time that we should forget all this "gun free zone" crap! Allow and encourage the schools staff and faculty to carry concealed weapons if they're willing and able. There's no excuse why everybody has to stand helplessly waiting for the police to arrive while the shooter has time to shoot 26 people multiple times each. If the principle that tried to stop the shooter and/or the teacher that placed herself in front of the children would have been armed this could have turned out to be a very different story.

    John C. Saubak
     
  7. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,353
    Maybe you should not be allowed to own a gun or at least some types of guns unless you have completed your military service obligation successfully?

    Ever think of that?

    And you dont get the right to vote unless you have completed 8 years- 2 active and 6 oncall of "national service" which can be the peace corps- civilan work corps or the military-

    Only military service however would give you the right to bear arms or at least some types of arms

    Regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  8. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    8,542
    Location:
    HELL, MICHIGAN
    Go away Gene..that's stupidity...

    No Senators son here, but thats one of the most elitist ignorant ideas I've ever seen.
     
  9. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,353
    Why is that stupidity? A couple of other nations require that mandatory service

    Why not require service? Because you dont want to serve?

    This model is followed in other nations and works

    Obviously something isnt working here

    It would have screened this kid out- and the controls they put on the storage of fireams would have prevented him from getting to one

    So what is wrong with this concept other than you dont like it personally?

    Regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  10. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    25,254
    Location:
    Deplorable Bitter Clinger in Liberal La La Land
    I think we'll be lucky if all we get is a storage law.

    My position is that it is not the government's place to tell us how to store our guns, especially with the baggage the anti's add on to their proposals, like draconian safe license fees to pay for registering your safe, having your safe inspected, and making you a criminal if someone steals your gun. Some storage proposals limited how many guns or how much ammo you could have. The devil is in the details.

    On the other hand I have been highly critical of gun owners who do not own and use a safe or a suitable alternative. It is irresponsible to not have your firearms secured when they are not under your direct control. When my son was old enough to have his firearms transferred from my safe to him, we gave him a safe as a present.
     
  11. Chango2

    Chango2 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2007
    Messages:
    3,518
    Perhaps we are not acting or thinking from theory, but are reacting from speculation. Perhaps we need look at the dynamics of our society in the USA compared to that in Switzerland and, perhaps, Israel, where weapons are in many, many housholds, if not all, and these trajedies do not occur, at least to my knowledge.

    I do think we live in a society that, unfortunately, does not intervene strongly enough to monitor and "help" those who are mentally ill. Having worked in the schools for many years, I find that, to a degree, a myth, to a degree, that feelings trump learning. I do feel that implicitly, in our society, we tend to marginalize so many of the average to below average children, particularly those with poor social skills. I believe that every child and person needs some place of comfort where they feel valued and successful to a degree where they are not a failure or "last". Schools need to look at that, for a start. I have worked in many schools where too many students fall through the cracks and are not involved as they could be. I reapet, every student needs a feeling of belonging and of place. (As do adults, for that matter.) A sense of "anomie" is a very destructive emotion. Too many children are growing up spiritually empty; I don't mean that in a religious sense per se, but in the sense of not valuing, enjoying, or appreciating the joy of mere exisence and seeing that there is a lot of beauty in this world.

    I also strongly agree that we have so many means where children and adults can desnsitize themselves to violence, killing, and maiming. Witness video games, some lyrics in popular music, and to a degree, the actions of our own government in the name of trying to protect us from whatever is trendy, be it drugs or other smaller nations.

    I also feel that because of our technological advances, we have good and bad. A person who committs something henious will know that such atrocities will make the airwaves and print and discussions for a long, long time. That person will know how much, metaphorically, "sand was thrown into the gears."

    However, before looking at gun control per se, gun storage, types of weapons that are available to us, etc., I think we need an examination of our national character, values, and culture. Ironically, I believe that the vast majority if not all of gun enthuiasts (ergo, purchase many firearms) who either compete, hunt, or cherish firearms for their artistry and historical value are the nation's very least threat due to internalized values and relative success in life.

    I fear the individuals who purchase firearms totally driven by hate, fear, feeling disenfranchised, lonely, and depression. To me, stopping and identifying "those" individuals is a very big conundrum. Perhaps more inclusive background checks would be practical or a "gun operator's license" could become requisite to own and operate a firearm in a fashion analagous to those who are legally certified to buy explosives or operate an aircraft.

    May we heal and learn from this trajedy; not just about security and how to react, but how to treat our fellow Americans and residents in our wonderful country.

    buzz-gun, shipbuilder, and hap, and others, thanks for your postings that reflect compassion and not mere knee-jerk emotional and/or legal defenses of the second amendment.
     
  12. esoxhunter

    esoxhunter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2,063
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Any type of gun control will alleviate this type of violence in the same way that taxing the top 1 % will alleviate the fiscal problems we have. However, you can bet Sarah Brady and Diane Feinstein are scheduling their plans for the future. They will achieve their goals too. Why? Because Justice Kennedy is retiring and the muslim will appoint another left wing loon to take Kennedy's place. Remember, the last vote on a major gun control issue was 5 to 4; with Kennedy being the deciding vote. The last election proved that this nation is on course to follow the European countries policies. We will now enjoy European health care; while fighting for our 2nd amendment rights. AND remember the 2nd amendment is interpreted a lot different when you are a liberal. The years to come will be difficult indeed. And the United Nations will have a lot to say about all of this; supported by the freak in the whitehouse.
     
  13. BT99Max100

    BT99Max100 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    268
    As gun owners we all need to ask ourselves: Is there anyone in my family & friends that should not have access to a gun. If yes - keep them locked up so that you are the only person that has access to the safe.

    John
     
  14. John Galt

    John Galt TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,788
    Banning video games we don't like and banning guns are the result of the same kind of thinking. Maybe we should just pass another law banning murder, it would have the same effect.

    Speaking of video games, why is it that they only turn boys into mass murderers and not girls?

    Didn't mass murders predate videogames by many years?

    Scapegoating videogames or guns or any other inantimate objects is pointless and so is speculating about motives prior to any investigation being completed.

    I'm waiting for somebody (liberal, no doubt) to bame this on hunting, after all it's far more violent than video games and sheds real blood.

    What about spanking? Maybe this lad was spanked as a child and it caused him to become a wacko. LMAO
     
  15. rpeerless

    rpeerless Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2009
    Messages:
    3,688
    The role of our changing society is sending confusing messages to today's youth, IMHO. What guides human behavior to say that if you are disgruntled with your family you should move away and start a life of your own and what governing rules of behavior say that if your family dishonors you, you have a duty to obliterate them and all that they held dear?
    What rules of a civil society say that children should be treasured, nurtured and protected (like animals naturally know to protect their offspring)? What governing rules of behavior see children as possessions and as objects of sexual proclavity?
    What rules of civil society extoll the role of women - with the view that women are worthy, should be respected and embraced as mothers of future Earth citizens?
    What rules of a governing society dictate that women are inferior, lowly and should be controlled and manipulated by superior men?
    Where and how will youth obtain a clearly defined sense of what is just, right or wrong?

    If you sow brocolli you get brocolli.
    If you sow tomatoes you get tomatoes.
    If you sow brocolli close with the tomatoes, neither will grow properly.

    According to JC, "Cast not your pearls (in this case pearls of wisdom and of our Five Freedoms) before swine."
     
  16. jimsw

    jimsw Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    198
    If I thought this sort of thing could be prevented I would go down to my vault and take out my AR 15, my Beretta automatic as well as the 2 AK 47 kits with new receivers I haven't finished and turn them in ASAP. It would do no good.

    What would do a lot of good for starters would be to cut down on the media violence, TV, movies and games. Kids are totally insensitive to violence because they see it all the time and it is glorified.

    Now the liberals out there are going to go nuts over free speech. Don't forget the Supreme court held free speech was fine but you couldn't, "shout fire in a crowded theater". If some of the junk on TV and the movies isn't "fire in a crowded theater" I don't know what is.
     
  17. Shipbuilder

    Shipbuilder TS Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    195
    Buzz Gun:

    I agree with your additional category of school security.

    After thinking about it for a day or so I would like to see the following:

    Gun Control: stiff mandatory federal sentences for use of a gun in commision of a felony and STIFFER mandatory federal sentences, perhaps 10 years, for possession of a gun by a convicted felon.

    Media: a rating system with some teeth and perhaps taxes on violent video games

    School Security: The presence of trained armed individuals ,either security officers or school staff on school property. My sense is that when most of the shooters are confronted they either turn their gun on themselves or surrender.

    I think we as gun owners are going to have to think about what we are willing to give up. And before you FLAME me I think we will be forced to give up something ; perhaps high capacity magazines or forced back ground checks even between private individual sales. I think we need to be proactive here, for example is the Grand a "gun Show"? I would hate to give up the ability to swap or buy trap guns at the Grand, or at the local swap meet at my gun club for that matter.

    I also thin each of us need to be responsible for controland security of our guns, but I am not willing to go so far as everyone must have a safe.

    Jim

    Jim
     
  18. Bentley998

    Bentley998 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    67
    Possibilities for avoiding tragic outcomes

    1. confisticate all guns in the country - impossible due to raw numbers and number of guns that woud not be given up

    2. Gun lockup required of all owners - teen's and young adults will find away

    3 New Jersey, New York and Connecticut have some of the toughest gun control laws in the country - incidents still happen as we have seen

    4 The only solution I can see is for each school, public place to have an "emergency response team" formed from among teachers, administrators, others
    who are trained, armed and in ordinary clothing and are among the individuals who go to their school,place of work, shopping every day.
    They will know who is there on legitimate business or are intruders
     
  19. shannon391

    shannon391 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    4,477
    The banned drugs decades ago, did that ban work?
     
  20. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    25,254
    Location:
    Deplorable Bitter Clinger in Liberal La La Land
    Those of you willing to kick to the curb and crap on your gun owning brothers, let me ask you this... Do you think the anti's will stop here, and are you going to expect our help when it's your turn to do battle with them? Why should those whose magazines you sold down the river help you prevent a lead shot ban? Are you going to unite or divide?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.