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Gun Cant

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Smok'n Joe, Dec 14, 2009.

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  1. Smok'n Joe

    Smok'n Joe Active Member

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    I recently "upgraded" from a flat shooting 1100 to a 34" Un-Single. While the Un-Single seems to fit and feel much better, my scores have not improved. One of the issues I haven't seen addressed here on TC.com is Gun CANT...

    When I began shooting this Un-Single, I noticed a lot of "Mystery Misses", i.e., shots that I felt were dead on but wound up being clean misses. For quite a while, I thought the problem was a faulty choke tube being either too tight, producing poor patterns, or off center compared to my 30" fixed full.

    But I've come to realize that the underlying problem may very well be an inconsistency in my gun mount. Even though this Un-Single seems to fit better and feel better, the 1100 consistently breaks more targets. Kind of confusing and very frustrating!

    I thought about why I wanted an Un-Single to begin with. Okay, for TRAP shooting, expecially handicap games, a higher P.O.I. is a good thing. The 1100 shoots flat. The Un-Single, with an adjustable rib and comb can be set up to shoot from flat to 100% high...so I want an Un-Single...The problem finally dawned on me while I was watching another shooter who was deliberately CANTING his gun on hard right and hard left targets. At first I thought he was nuts...he would literally bend to the left or right from his waste up on hard left/hard right targets. He looked like a Fighter Pilot trying to "steer" his shot! I just shook my head...but on the way home I tried to think about why he was doing that...

    That's when it hit me! Even though the Un-Single seems to fit better and mounts well, those clean misses are the result of a CANTED gun mount. The problem is not as noticeable with the 1100 because the P.O.I. on the 1100 is flat while the P.O.I. on the Un-Single is much higher. The bottom line is that the effect of a canted mount is exaggerated with the Un-Single and becomes even more of an issue compared to an 1100, 870 or even a Top-Single.

    I read a good article about Gun CANT over the weekend. It's a bad habit that can seriously affect performance and scores and needs to be addressed.

    I don't need an excuse to buy another accessory, but I do believe an adjustable pad may help or at least address this problem.

    Your comments and suggestions are welcome...
     
  2. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    If you are a right hand shooter and you cant the gun to the left that is a good thing to do. It puts the rib and beads in front of your right eye. This allows you to keep your head up straight and level.

    Why are you missing? Your brain has been programed to break birds with a flat shoting gun, the 1100. Now you are shooting a gun with a different POI. It might help to set both guns up with the same POI. Or you can reprogram your brain to hit targets with the new gun. HMB
     
  3. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    I do not believe canting will cause a significant change in POI. The small offset caused by canting the gun will not cause you to miss if your gun is mounted the same way every time. That is why you fine tune your gun fit after you get POI close to where you want it on the patterning board.

    Please post information on the article you reference.

    Don Verna
     
  4. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Smok'n, HMB gave you good advice. An adjustable butt plate will eliminate the cant. However, it may introduce other problems related to gun fit.

    If you mount the gun normally and your head is positioned correctly and you are looking right down the rib without consciously "adjusting", then canting is not bad. Your automatic targeting system will quickly adjust.

    If you are contorting your position to line up the beads, that will be one possible explanation to your mystery misses. Move your head slightly while swinging on the bird and you are no longer shooting straight.

    I'll suggest another possible cause of you mystery misses is eye dominance issues. I don't mean cross dominance, I mean an occasional shift. Remember, both of your eyes have a much better view of the world with an unsingle. It will take you some time to sort that out. Also, canting can cause a sort of optical illusion. If you're right handed and cant counterclockwise, sometimes this illusion causes your left eye to take over and you miss.

    Look to good gun fit first. That will cure a multitude of ills, including canting. Remember also, your 1100 fit differently than your new gun. You are used to conforming yourself to the 1100. Now that you have a new gun, it will take some time to adjust to it. Along the way, a few 1100 habits might sneak in and cause an occasional miss.
     
  5. Smok'n Joe

    Smok'n Joe Active Member

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    Okay, Sarge...

    I had been shooting an 1100 Trap, 30" fixed full with an adjustable comb...prior to that I've owned a BT99, 101, O/Us, pumps etc. etc. Yes I like my toys and I realize that shooting different guns is a hinderance!

    I stopped shooting for more than dozen years when my Dad passed away, but I've taken up the game again. Bought an SKB 85TSS in August after handling one in Sparta. For the money, it really felt good and had all the adjustments and new technology in one package. Plus, I wanted a single break open for shooting games at the club.

    I've been casually shooting trap for 50 years. Used to run in the mid to high 90s, but right now 88 to 92 is about the best I can do. I'm not trying to make the Olympic team, but I really do enjoy shooting the games at the club from 27 yard handicap on back. I've done okay, but haven't satisfied my expectations with the new gun.

    Yes, it's been a struggle. I'm on a learning curve and have only had it since August of this year. It's been back to Nebraska for mechanical failures which caused me to go back to the 1100for several weeks. I replaced the Briley flush mount chokes with extended Carlson's which seem to be a big improvement.

    I bought this gun to get a higher POI for handicap shooting, but this canting issue may explain some of the MYSTERY MISSES and inconsistency I'm experiencing. I totally agree with you on the pitfalls of all the adjustable components...it's over complicated a fairly simple game...but I am considering an adjustable pad to address the canting issue.
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I agree with zzt but will add one thing. We are now shooting in very poor light conditions. They will not begin to get better until Dec. 22 and will not be good until March. This can cause misses. During the Winter, we wear heavy cloths and still get cold. These things can also result in misses. I would not be hasty about reaching conclusions about misses until Spring.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Forget cant as the cause for many misses. It's not a strong enough effect.

    Maybe you just don't need a high-shooting gun. Do you _know_ the 1100 shoots flat and how do you know that? Do you know where the un-single shoots and if it's different from the 1100, do you know why you made that change? The fact that higher points of impact are so popular here is not a "reason."

    Last, some people can't shoot un-singles. I can't and maybe you can"t either.

    Neil
     
  8. DTrykow

    DTrykow Active Member

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    It took me a year to get used to my Un-single. I was shooting a Citori Plus.
    An adjustable butt plate help a lot. I stopped canting. Well worth the wait.
    Dave T.
     
  9. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    If I had to guess you have to many things on your brain and on occasion you revert back to flat shooting like your old gun with your new one. The hold point on the bird is different and if you hold flat with the high gun then right over the top. Clear your brain of the kids, the club house and business and spend time on your gun with maybe Roger or Rosey. You have to ingrain in your brain your new hold point on the target. The chances are you may be peeking a little, picking the head up, those targets always look perfect but are misses.

    Don
     
  10. dr.beav

    dr.beav Member

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    Hey - if an adjustable pad will help cure a cant - which way should you adjust a pad for a right hand shooter to help off-set cant???? the beav
     
  11. bluedsteel

    bluedsteel Member

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    My two cents for what it is worth: I am struggling at handicap yardage with my Browning XT, and I believe my cant has a lot to do with it. A few thoughts:

    1) I have a very nice adjustable butt pad. Adjusting it has made no difference in my cant. The cant is caused (in my case) by the grip of my right and left hand, not the placement of my pad in my shoulder pocket. All that changing the buttpad accomplished was to make the toe of the pad gouge either my chest or my shoulder. The cant remained.

    2) I shoot the bottom barrel at handicap targets. Any cant is exaggerated by the height of the rib above the bore...hence the particular problem you are having with the unsingle.

    3) I find the targets I usually miss are shallow angles. I believe if you calculate the bore/rib relationship, you will find that the pattern shifts enough so misses are possible on these targets when canting.

    4) Some shooters are able to change the direction of their cant based on the direction the target is moving. Good for them. I can't (no pun intended).

    5) I also shoot single barrel guns like Model 12's and 870's better at handicap yardage than I do unsingles or my bottom barrel XT.

    6) As far as switching to the top barrel of my XT, well, recoil is more of an issue, but this is something I am considering.

    7) I have to consciously "reverse cant" my gun to correct my cant. When I do this, others say my bores are vertical, and granted, I shoot better. But consciously having to do this messes with my mental focus, and causes other problems.

    ...the journey continues. Good luck.

    bluedsteel
     
  12. DTrykow

    DTrykow Active Member

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    Doc: I loosened the pad then mounted the gun with my eyes closed. Then opened them and turned the gun to correct the cant. Tigtned the pad then shot the gun to see if any further adjustment was needed. Cured me. From what I read its not the cant, when just holding the gun in place, that is the problem but the canting as your swinging. As Neil said, though, it may not make a hill of beans but it's one piece of the puzzle for correct mechanics and gun fit. Dave T.
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    blue, your cant - as is most peoples-is I think, caused by a too thick stock. This gives you choice of tilting your head to look down the rib or canting the gun, which at least keeps your eyes pretty level, a good thing. The only other thing to do would be to narrow the stock, but I'd try one which already had that done just to be sure beforehand.

    I hope in a month to be able to talk you out of most of the rest of your post, the unsingle and lower-barrel part. Maybe even the recoil part, but that will take longer.

    Neil
     
  14. bluedsteel

    bluedsteel Member

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    Neil;

    If it matters, I do have a fully adjustable comb on my XT.

    My cant involves the upper barrel being close to my body/face, but the lower barrel being away from me...around 20-25 degrees of total cant. You would think that moving the comb toward my face would move the top barrel away from my face, and reduce the cant, which it does. However, with the comb moved towards my face, I can't get my face close enough to look down the rib, and I have to tilt my head to align the beads...and then I get a big comb slap when I fire the gun. I actually developed a red welt on my cheekbone before I was told to "STOP". I did break a few more targets, but it wasn't worth the pain (and beginning of a flinch).

    bluedsteel
     
  15. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Blued, there's no chance that your XT is cast the wrong way, is there? Like for a left-hander when you are right, or the opposite? In any case, next time you are at the club, keep your eye on some of the guns there, and if you see one with that's cast the proper way, or has an offset comb in the right direction, ask if you can shoulder it just to see what happens. If you can look better down it than you do your XT, at least you have some idea in which direction to go. Good luck.

    Neil
     
  16. pufftarget

    pufftarget Active Member

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    When Perazzi began providing the MX-8 with an intermediate step and about 1/4" step their comment was that with any higher rib and the gun canted the point of impact would vary significantly from the point of aim. Don't know how high above the receiver your rib is but it may be contributing.The suggestion to take the bottom pad screw out and loosen the top one to allow the pad to conform to the shoulder pocket while twisting the gun to take the cant out is a good one, and will give you an idea of how much adjustment is needed. If a friend has a similar gun w/ adjustable comb try that. Finally, Pitch doesn't get enough attention in fitting and can contribute to canting if too litle.

    Chuck
     
  17. bluedsteel

    bluedsteel Member

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    Phil;

    I am a lefty, but other than the adjustable buttpad, my XT has a factory stock, which has pretty much a neutral cast. For what it is worth, I fired a friend's Krieghoff K80 Unsingle Trap Classic, and the cant was still there (his K80 has a slight cast off). My scores weren't much better with the K80 unsingle than with my XT.

    It is a vexing problem...my singles average is over 96, but my cap scores are in the 70's...(25 yards). I have done "the walk back" (shooting at 20 yards and then moving back a yard after each good round). At 23 yards, I start shooting 21/25, at 24 yards I drop to around 18/25, and at 25 yards, I can lose as many as 10 birds. To make matters worse, I sometimes will shoot 24/25 at the 25 yard line...go figure that out.

    Anyway, I think having a cant is a big part of the problem...could be wrong...

    Thanks.

    bluedsteel
     
  18. bluedsteel

    bluedsteel Member

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    Neil...I meant Neil...not Phil...sorry...duh..

    bluedsteel
     
  19. Smok'n Joe

    Smok'n Joe Active Member

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    The article I referenced can be found in Issue Two of Trapshooting USA. I tried copy and paste it here, but it won't work for me. It's a good read and the pictures tell the story. If you're interested, Google Trapshooting USA and take a look at Issue Two...
     
  20. EuroJoe

    EuroJoe TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    R.H. shooters should twist pad ccw to help canting. Now you know why I sold my MX-15.
     
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