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Gun Blow Ups???

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by bigdogtx, Feb 14, 2012.

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  1. bigdogtx

    bigdogtx Well-Known Member

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    I DO NOT want to start another thread bashing K-80, but I noticed a couple things that maybe someone can clear up:

    It seem that the MAJORITY of the guns that "blow up" are K80's. Some are saying that it is due to blockage or a certain reloader. Wouldn't a blockage or the same reloader cause a Kolar, Perazzi, Beretta etc to "blow up" the same as the K80?

    With all the cell phones, why aren't there pictures. Are some just picking on the K80 much more than other brands and models???? and if so, why????

    Is it mostly AA reloads?? If so, how many times had they been previously reloaded???

    Has there been any study of the ones that did blow up, whether lengthening the forcing cones had been done?

    I don't seem to have seen any Ljutics, Silver Seitz, Bowen, Infinity or Mach Ones. What is different about these???

    Are the "blow ups" on the O/U, top single, or unsingle or is there a difference???

    Have any Automatics, Browning or Beretta, blown up????

    I just want to reduce as much as possible any risk of "blow ups" to myself or family.

    Has anyone thought to do a "chart" of these blow ups to get a trend of what is going on.
     
  2. BBowen

    BBowen Member

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    bigdogtx,

    It's amazing--you post some important and pertinent questions and you stump all the ts.com experts. Not one reply to you post!! "I just want to reduce as much as possible any risk of 'blow ups' to myself or family." Very Good...

    Bruce Bowen
     
  3. skeezix

    skeezix Member

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    What I've noticed is there is a lot of speculation - but no followups on blown guns. There is ONE report on shotgunworld from someone who witnessed a blown gun and actually found a AAHS hull with a missing basewad. Other than that one case - it's mostly speculation. No one ever confirms a missing basewad, what reloader, loading practices, etc. There have been reports of CG, K80's, unknown guns (the one in Nanimo recently), pumps, auto's , etc - but no post mortem facts of what happened. No dissected shells to look at loads, components, nothing. Frustrating.

    Also, I find it kind of funny in an abstract way. There is a lot of very passionate arguing about it - with absolutely no facts to argue over. This last thread on the K80 got pretty testy arguing about details - and all that is really known is that a K80 reportedly blew up.
     
  4. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    I agree with skeezix. There is a reason why speculation is not allowed in a trial. Just the facts are allowed. Which brings me to this conclusion. Maybe that is why we do not hear to much about the causes. Possible lawsuits.
     
  5. Gross Man

    Gross Man Member

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    This is a good post and I like the comments. I had a separate string on "Statical Analysis for Blow Ups". As a shooting community we should get some real answers to these safety related questions. I don't think the guns and ammo companies are interested in setting something up because of product liability issues, and I don't think the shooting organizations have the motivation or money to do it.

    Perhaps as starters we could start building a data base. We could set up a web site with a formatted Incident Report Questionnaire. Eventually we could analyze the data and possibly reach some well founded conclusions and recommendations. Any legitimate lab analysis data and pictures could also go in.

    I would contribute $100. to getting this started.

    Billy Gross
     
  6. guinner16

    guinner16 TS Member

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    How bout we just spam the mythbusters show with this request and maybe they can foot the bill.
     
  7. BBowen

    BBowen Member

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    Be careful. All you have to do is look at what happened to the guys at Quantico. And, I think they were on the right track. The industry will do everything they can to discredit (or even sue) anyone who questions whether catastrophic shotgun failures are caused by reloads, etc. They have done a great job convincing the shooting public that the cause is reloads, even when it happens using new shells. I have been discredited here on TS.com by many and even by someone from one of the major powder companys because I tried a few things and have an idea that maybe, just maybe, reloads, etc. are not causing all these failures.

    Bruce Bowen
     
  8. Ljutic111

    Ljutic111 TS Member

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    When car manufacturers see a fault in their products , they issue a recall . Same should be done in the gun manufacturing business . I believe there could be stress issues with the barrels of K80`s in particular since there is a lot of blow-ups with them . Not saying other brands or barrel work isn`t causing the problems . We as gun owners should have some watch dog agency looking for our protection .
     
  9. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    bigdogtx I will gladly share what data that I have been able to gather but it is slim at best. During that period 2 years ago when it seemed like we were hearing something about a gun blowing up every couple of weeks I tried to gather as much factual data as I could including pictures. I sent requests for information to about 18 folks who either were the owners or were present at the event. The request explained that I was trying to compile as much information on these events as possible and asked for pictures, ammo data factory or reload and if reloads the specifics including the loader brand. More than half of the requests were un-answered several more came back as "go to hells" A few did reply and some stated that they would rather not for various reasons (litigation, dealing with the gun maker Etc.)

    In answer to some of your specific questions. There were pics or info provided on.

    2 K-80 (1 over 1 under) (reload AA;PW , reload STS)

    2 Caesar Guerini (1 over 1 under) (reload AA; PW; INT Clays OR Clays ; 7/8oz
    , reload nitro27; INT Clays)

    1 Winchester 101 (under) (reload AA; Green Dot)

    1 Perazzi Mx-14 (under),(AA)( interestingly this is the only O/U where the receiver sides did not seperate)

    1 Savage 420 (under) AA

    1 KX5

    1 Remington 11

    As I said above these are the only ones that I have data or pics or both on that are classic blowups. I have a couple of classic barrel obstructions with the basic banana peel barrels but I don't lump them in with the blow ups.
    I will be glad to share what I have UNLESS I was requested not to by the responder.

    I would also ask that if anyone has additional data would they please share it with me.



    --- Chip King ---
     
  10. SMITH47

    SMITH47 Member

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    Bruce

    i never wanted to be a part of the rumor stuff.
    but this happened at my club a couple of years ago. i saw the gun and the shooter after it happened.
    these were the only two pics i could get. it was a k80 and he was using reloaded aa hulls. the shooter said he thought it was a lodged separated base wad but was not positive ? no one was hurt and the shooter was shaken a bit !

    ernie
     
  11. SMITH47

    SMITH47 Member

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    smith47_2008_21085.jpg


    the other pic
     
  12. Gross Man

    Gross Man Member

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    Bruce - You make a good point. I think the Quantico guys had the right idea in form (standard military incident report), but their conclusions were unfounded and not supported by the data. I think Chip has the right idea, just objective presentation of the data. If we continued what Chip started and structured it a little bit, it would be very useful. Billy Gross
     
  13. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    Bruce if you have data on blowups where factory ammo was involved please PM me so I can e-mail you for the information and pictures.

    --- Chip King ---
     
  14. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    The base wad could separate from a new shell, just as easy as a reload. The first thing I would look for would be the hull of the shell previously fired. Not saying this was the cause to any of these. You have to start somewhere. Jon
     
  15. Pull & Mark

    Pull & Mark Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting question to say the least. But with the lack of any hard data its next to impossible to draw any conclusions. I've often wondered how many rounds had been shot though some of these barrels and if any non-factory work had been done like lenthened forceing cones, and or overboring the barrel/ having the barrels tuned as some would say would also fit in as well. I'd have to guess half of them justed happened for no reason that could be explained. But I dought we will ever know. break em all Jeff
     
  16. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    I agree that some of the down barrel bursts could possibly be because of aftermarket work that thin the barrels. These cases where the chambers are exploding would more than likely be from other causes, in my opinion. Jon
     
  17. bigdogtx

    bigdogtx Well-Known Member

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    Chip, Thanks for this. I am contemplating getting an O/U so as to be able to look down the barrels. I don't shoot enough to justify a reloader, but have shot some AA's, STS (all variations), Estates, Rio's, Wal-Mart specials etc.

    Maybe one of our resident engineering type fellows can maybe answer this (and may be unable due to unknown data) but why is it that we don't see pumps or autos on the list very often? Is it due to pressures being diverted in a different manner? Has this ever happened to a Model 12? Are metals weaker today? I am not familiar with the Rem 11.

    In the O/U cases, first shot, second shot or did not matter?

    Do any here know if there are similar instances on the sporting fields? I know they allow faster speeds in their shells. Skeet fields? They are usually using 7/8 or 1 oz. Does or would this make a difference?

    Bruce, didn't you or someone else intentionally leave a barrel obstructed to try to reproduce the blow ups?
     
  18. Chango2

    Chango2 Active Member

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    IMO, all entries were helpful and logical and objective points listed in this thread. I think a page could be taken from mountaineering: The American Alpine Club publishes a book each year, or did, listing all reported mountaineering accidents in North America during the previous year. This information is designed to educate other mountaineers about what can go wrong, what has gone wrong, what areas in the out of doors are more difficult or dangerous than previously thought, indicate how eqiupment may have been missused, whether accidents are due to equipment, human, or natural and unforseen variables.

    I should also hope and suggest that an individual who is very well versed in statistics will also help with interpreting any database that is developed. It is overwhelmingly difficult, IMO, to determine cause from data that is merely correlative. I also have a "WAG", (Wild Ass Guess) that a good deal of information could be obtained if tournament shotgun actions, those in service and non-damaged, preferably with known amount of use, were X-Rayed; guns given to an X-Ray inspection would be submitted purely on an owner-volunteered basis. This is, of course, fast, and non-destructive testing. Automotive race car parts, particularly suspension parts, are routinely inspected via X-Ray or sonic testing etc. on a routine basis.

    Any metallergists out there? Any race car engineers among our ranks? Any statisticians?

    Thanks,

    David
     
  19. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Let's change one thing at a time and see what happens:

    1. Backbore a bbl repeatedly until it bursts.

    2. Increase the pressure on a bbl until it bursts.

    3. Add effective obstructions until it bursts.

    Surely we can make all of these happen. So be very careful what you buy and make darn sure your reloading is sound. And check for obstructions.

    I'll stay clear of those that go.

    Joe
     
  20. BBowen

    BBowen Member

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    I have a file that is very thick but unfortunately, I cannot share the info. There are many reasons I can't which include, but are not limited to: pending lawsuits, confidentiality agreements, my word, etc. I will say that most of the failures that I have info on are limited to three different guns but not limited to reloads.

    You have to realize that when this happens, people are sometimes injured, embarrassed, afraid of ridicule, and have lost an expensive gun. I have a picture from the recent failure in California and the person who gave sent it to me told me that he was shooting on the same squad and it upset him so much he packed it up and went home from the gun club.

    I have to disagree with what was said in an earlier post about Quantico. I think the data did support the conclusion that was reached by the people there and was much more likely accurate than the report I got that came from the big ballistic lab which almost always lists the cause as reloads. It is also important to keep in mind that 3 of these guns came apart in a short period of time in different parts of the country and one in Canada. Coincidental--I don't think so.

    I would love to see any info on failures that anyone is willing to share. I apologize for not sharing what I have. My interest is to find the real cause and prevent anyone else from being injured. I have had total strangers walk up to me at various shoots and show me the scars from serious injuries and it makes me sick. Most of the time, when there is a catastrophic shotgun failure, nothing much happens and that is sad.

    Bruce Bowen
     
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