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GREEN DOT

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by mikee, Jun 10, 2007.

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  1. mikee

    mikee TS Member

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    Could anyone give me a few good recipes?........Green dot powder,straight walled hulls (2 3/4), cci209 primers,.1 1/8 shot.want high velocity, to be shot from a beretta extrema 2.

    mike
     
  2. Dave P

    Dave P TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Do a search for ALLIANT and ask for a reloading manual!
     
  3. mikee

    mikee TS Member

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    Have done. They dont give any recipes for Victory or B+P hulls. has anyone used either?

    mike
     
  4. mikee

    mikee TS Member

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    Hav also got some Lyalvale hulls. These hulls are all 8star crimp. The wads I will be using are Vagner VP10.

    mike
     
  5. Pull & Mark

    Pull & Mark Well-Known Member

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    Mike, If you can not find a recipe for the hulls you want to load from alliants website do not load one that someone gives you and says its OK. Alot of skeet shooters used to load 12,20,28 ga. with green dot. They were not a good load back then (to high of chamber pressures on one ga.) and since they changed there powders to clean them up a bit, you can not use at all in those ga's.so there are some old recipes out there that are not good anymore. Only use the recipes that you find on there website.Best of Luck and break-em all. Jeff
     
  6. mikee

    mikee TS Member

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    Thanks Jeff for the advice. Do you think starting at maybe 18 or 19 grains would be a problem? If I could get them to pattern well at say 35yds?.I have not got any means to chronograph them. I neglected to say that these hulls are all my own and will only be reloaded once .

    mike
     
  7. Big Al 29

    Big Al 29 TS Member

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    Mike: I am not trying to give you a hard time. Did you read what Jeff just said? Its really good advice you should take. If you want to load "high velocity" shells that means you are talking moving towards the high pressure curve. The CCI primers are pretty hot and pushing an ounce and an eighth of shot will get you up into high pressure country. If you can not find any data that works with the wads and shells you have, DO NOT DO IT!

    I think starting with 18 or 19 grains would be a problem. You have no idea how much pressure you are creating with the load. ou may not worry about your own safety but its a guess your squad mates may not want you to take as they are in danger too.

    My advice is this: Look at the Alliant data and see what shells they have data on as they have cheapo type hulls you can find rather easily and can the wads unless there is data on the bag. Or... check your wad bag. If there is data for Green Dot just go out and find the hulls they have listed and find a primer they have listed and go to towm.

    Bottom line is you can;t just scrap up a bunch of components and start dropping powder and see what happens.

    Seems like you have no idea what you have. Many guys have a published load they use and may look into changing the primer or wad due to component pricing. IMHO they can do it if they are knowledgeable in the brissance of the primers they are changing to and have some wad data to compare. Also as long as they are loading on the bottom or middle of the pressure scale.

    High velocity desire + no loading data + willingness to experiment = disaster.

    You really should look into what you are trying to do and make some sensible changes.

    Good Luck!
     
  8. goosecall

    goosecall TS Member

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    Are the hulls similar to Cheddite hulls? If they are that could be a starting point. Allaint has data for those hulls. For those who may flame at me he is using a Extrema 2, 12 ga 3 1/2 14,500 PSI is what the factory shells are rated at. 10Tenner
     
  9. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    mikee

    I know I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but there are some people that should not reload. Guessing about how much powder to use with hulls and components that don't appear to be covered in any popular data sources is quite risky. If you can't find reliable data for the EXACT components you intend to use, just don't do it. Call Alliant and see if they have a recommendation for you. They manufacture Green Dot and would be one of the best sources for that information. DO NOT attempt any load listed in a forum or other suspect source. If you can't do velocity testing, then I would assume you don't have the facilities for pressure testing either. It's not worth the risk to make up a load and just "Hope" it's OK without being able to properly test it. You can always send some loads out for pressure and velocity testing. It's less costly than replacing a firearm or body parts.
     
  10. mikee

    mikee TS Member

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    Lads you will not get flamed by me for what seems to be excellent advise. I just wondered if any of you had encountered any of these components. I have just tried to phone Alliant but there technical people appear to be on holiday so I hav e-mailed them instead and will await their reply before I do anything elce.

    10Tenner someone told me that these hulls are simular to cheddite. The B+P have whats known as the Gordon system, the three hulls listed have all got plastic base wads and appear to be very well made. Precision reloaders say that they have some limited reloading data for the B+Ps but on an earlier post on this forum it was stated that to say their data was limited was an overstatement.

    thanks again

    mike
     
  11. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    mikee

    I've seen the hulls you have described, but never thought to try reloading them due to a lack of data. You can always section a hull and compare it with another, more popular hull, to see if it appears to be the same. I have seen the hulls you have mentioned, but never thought of reloading them due to a lack of reliable data. I remember seeing some data listed somewhere for the B&P hulls, but don't recall where. I looked at my stash of odd stuff and didn't see it there. If I come across any of it, I'll post it here. There is a possibility of having non-209 sized primer pockets, so your choice of primers may be limited. I remember someone at a local club that had loaded some B&P hulls and had the primers fall out in an auto shotgun. I'll ask him where he found the data and what his load was.

    My advice would be to get hold of some more popular hulls like the Remingtons and load them instead. I don't know where you are located, but many clubs in the USA throw out many hulls like the Remington Gun Clubs, Nitros, and STS that can be loaded without such issues. I throw out many hulls that are reloadable just because there is a lack of data, or they require some odd components that would be unique to that type of hull and not worth tracking down to obtain. The Remingtons are also a one piece construction and are not subject to base wad separations like many of the two-piece hulls.
     
  12. mikee

    mikee TS Member

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    I have looked up a powder burn rate chart and see that Hodgdon's TR100 and International have simular burn rates to Green Dot. Hodgdon also list loads for the hulls that I have. As yet I have not had any reply from Alliant.I stated at the start that I wanted a HV load, maybe someone could advise on a slower speed.

    mike
     
  13. darr

    darr Well-Known Member

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    The guy at Alliant told me to use a fine powder like 4756 or a ball powder and fill the hull all the way up.Then weigh the powder.Then take another straight sided hull from a more popular brand like Federal or Fiochi.If the powder weighs the same in your hull and the more popular hull they probably have similar inside diminsions.I suspect most straight walled shells do have similar inside diminsions.So you might consider using the more plentiful recipes of these more popular shells.Again this was from Alliant.My ? had to do with subbing data for the new Rem hull and the Blue magic hull.Turns out the data is interchangeable,again this came from Alliant.Do I load unpublished loads,sometimes but not without checking with the powder company.Green Dot is a Fairly low pressure 11/8 powder depending on primer and wad.This is my experience and I hope it helps.Check with the powder co.

    Darr
     
  14. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Go to the Hodgdon data site, enter the gauge and the hull type and there is a fair amount of data for the B&P hulls. It's not Alliant or Green Dot, but they have a wide variety of powders that are suitable for the hull in many loadings.
     
  15. goosecall

    goosecall TS Member

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    "I know I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but there are some people that should not reload." Only 30 years of reloading shotgun shells, pistol, and rifle, have not blown up a gun. 10Tenner
     
  16. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    10Tenner

    Well, good to hear that! I'm sure there are some that can't make that claim and don't want to admit it. I've seen damage to firearms where improper reloads were the most probable explanation. They don't always have to "blow up". Sometimes they just sustain some damage or undue wear, short of a catastrophic failure. Attempting to create a load from scratch with no data to go on, is a risky procedure. Asking for such load data on a public forum is a crap shoot. You might get something good, but you never know. There are much better sources for such information. I still say that "There are some people that should not reload". I've met, spoken with, or have corresponded with quite a few of them over the years. I have about 15 years on top of that 30 you claim. The length of time someone has been reloading does not matter if they haven't learned anything during that time. You can certainly learn some bad habits and risky practices over the years if you look for, and listen to, bad advice. AND familiarity breeds contempt. Never forget the hazards that can be encountered when reloading.
     
  17. goosecall

    goosecall TS Member

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    "The length of time someone has been reloading does not matter if they haven't learned anything during that time. You can certainly learn some bad habits and risky practices over the years if you look for, and listen to, bad advice." like I said above I must know something have not blown up a gun, and did you read what gun Mikee is using? Do you know what the factory 3 1/2 12ga PSI shells are running at, and if you don't look at a factory's fired primer on steel 3 1/2 hull, and look at the primer, and you will know the pressure is up there. Why should Mikee be so concerned about a lite trap loads that is well under the PSI limits of a 3 1/2 shell for a Extrema 2? Now to set the record straight I personally do not take a load data, such as a 11,000 PSI load and then start swapping components and use them in a trap gun. Another example, take a 10,500 PSI load calling for a Win209 primer, and then use a Fed209A primer. 10Tenner
     
  18. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    10Tenner

    The pressure limits for a 2 3/4" shell are the pressure limits for a 2 3/4" shell, PERIOD! I personally would not want to load a bunch of really hot 2 3/4" shells and take the chance that they may end up in a different gun someday. That's the kind of stuff that accidents are made of. If he were asking for loads for a 3 1/2" shell, it would be a totally different story. He will also need to find a load that will function reliably in his gun. Light loads developing low pressures will probably not cut it, so he will probably be working at pressures near or above 10,000 PSI. Not too much room to play around there. Why not do it right from the start and get some reliable data you can work with? By the way, primer condition is NOT a reliable indicator for pressure in a shotshell. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. It's a crapshoot at best.
     
  19. goosecall

    goosecall TS Member

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    Quack Shot my brother has two extremas "Light loads developing low pressures will probably not cut it, so he will probably be working at pressures near or above 10,000 PSI." He has shot 7/8 oz all the way up to 1 7/8 oz. Mike wanted a load for Green Dot in the gorden system hulls, and they are similar if not less PSI hulls than Cheditte check the data on Hogden's website and compare the two, so what if the PSI is 10,000 or even 11,000 PSI he still is safe in modern guns. Quack Shot I bet you would not even substitute a Top gun hull or Estate hull for Federal Gold Medal data? If not, I end the discussion of this thread. 10tenner
     
  20. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    10Tenner

    Many shotguns chambered for the 3 1/2" shells do not function reliably with lighter 2 3/4" loads. There may be exceptions, but I have tried light loads in the same model firearm with different results as those you claim to have obtained. Mikee was asking for Green Dot loads for B&P and other hulls. I have not seen any Green Dot data for those exact hulls, although that doesn't mean some doesn't exist. Why do you reference Hodgdon data? It's apples and oranges. You appear to condone the practice of loading that 2 3/4" hull up to the pressure limits of the 3 1/2" hull. I would take exception with that advice for he reasons I stated previously, and then some. Would you load up .38 Special cases to hot .357 Magnum pressures just because you intend to fire them in a .357 Magnum firearm? What happens if one of those loads accidentally gets into and old lightweight .38 snubby? The cases or the gun may not hold up well. Same principal here. It's a bad practice to suggest.

    If you read my posts, I suggested that Mikee section a hull and compare it to similar hulls. If they are extremely close to another hull, you could possibly use the data for the hull it compares to, with a certain amount of caution. I would NOT EVER suggest that ANYONE ignore reasonable safety practices and load a 12 ga. 2 3/4" hull over standard pressure specs. If I remember correctly, the B&P hull is a bit unique and is not EXACTLY like any other popular hull, although it may be close enough to work with some data. The problem is that you could be working blind in the upper ranges of pressure for the 2 3/4" hull. It might be better just to find some data for the hulls and obtain the components listed in that data, rather than conjure up some recipe on your own. We are actually talking about the substitution of 2 components here. The hulls AND the wads, since there appears to be no published data that covers both of those components with Green Dot powder.

    In reference to your "Bet", I have no need to substitute Gold Medal data for Top Guns or Estates. I have plenty of reliable data for those hulls, without needing to substitute Gold Medal or any other data. I never said it couldn't be done either, since the hulls are similar, except for the paper vs plastic base wads, so there WOULD be some difference, but that difference should be within reason for loads listed to develop reasonable pressures to begin with. I wouldn't be substituting data for loads much over 10,000 PSI. Federal Hulls are not B%P, Victory, or Lyalvale Express, so I don't see the relevance.

    There are enough variables that can put a load over the top. Even differences in crimp depth can cause a large difference in pressure. Pressures can even change from slight variations from lot to lot of powder, primers, wads, etc. If the tolerances were stacked up towards the high side, I'd like to have a little buffer for safety. I usually advise caution if/when making substitutions.

    My reloading practices are not in question. Some of your advice is what I disagree with. So far you're batting 1000! Suggesting that primer flattening is a reliable method for judging pressure in shotshells. Suggesting that someone disregard the standard pressure limits of one shell and load it to the specs of a higher pressure shell. What's next?

    Buy the way, "Cheditte" is spelled C-H-E-D-D-I-T-E, as in "Cheddite"!

    It appears that David P. could possibly provide some of the data that Mikee was looking for anyway. I'd rather verify it all with Alliant, but they can be pretty poor about responding to inquiries. You just need to catch them at the right time.

    Now be sure to quote me in your next post when you make your next argument! I don't think It was me that pissed in your corn flakes, so I don't understand why you started to quote me and direct your posts towards me in such a challenging manner. You have been rude in doing so and I have responded. If you have some bug located where the sun does not shine, I certainly didn't put it there. If you have taken exception with some advice I have given, make your point politely and then go away. We have taken this thread off topic enough already and all of this is rather counterproductive.

    Mikee

    I sectioned a Victory hull and compared it with a few others I have here. It is almost exactly like the Fiocchi purple hull. I would think that if your hulls are the same, they could be used with Fiocchi data as long as you don't select anything in the upper ranges of pressure. I don't have a B&P or Lyalvale hull handy to compare for you. I'll apologize for my participation in the hijacking of your thread with the ensuing discussion (argument).
     
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