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GRADING QUESTION - Help with gun purchase issue

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by dmarbell, Aug 11, 2010.

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  1. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    I bought this gun from a seller on Gunbroker. Here is the description, and you can look the ad up yourself. It would help if you look at the original pics and compare them to mine. I bought the gun AS IS.

    Description for Item # 181999794

    This minty 12 bore gun has seen very few rounds and comes with factory hard case, 5 factory choke tubes, wrench & paperwork. An exceptional shotgun hand selected from distributors stock for exceptional wood quality. FFL required. Anyone making stupid bids that remain at closing will be banned as I see fit.
    [Information added 7/6/2010 2:53:46 PM]
    This is an 11-87 Model gun.

    [Information added 7/18/2010 7:23:08 PM]
    That three cents is really gonna put this bidder over the top !

    [Information added 7/18/2010 7:28:18 PM]
    NOTE: This gun has a 28" light contour barrel.
    _____________________________________________________

    Here are pics of the gun that I took after I received it today. The left side of the receiver had some tape on it, and the pitting was under that.
    The forearm pic should show slight weakening of the wood where those lines are.

    In place of "minty," I would describe this gun and used, in good condition, with several scratches and marks on both sides and top of the receiver. I am asking for opinions for discussions with the seller, which on an as is auction will most likely be fruitless, and for feedback. The most recent feedback was posted after my purchase.

    Danny





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  2. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    About all you can do is ding him, and I certainly would.

    You can file a complaint with Gunbrokers, but enjoy the frustration of that process.

    'Minty' has a plain-text meaning, and that piece surely isn't, but if you asked no questions, nor got more detailed pics, you are part of your own problem.

    For that gun, if the internals are good, that's not a horrible buy.

    Bob
     
  3. Mark425

    Mark425 TS Member

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    I would just send it back, saying its not in the condition I expected. 100's of other 11-87's out there.
     
  4. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    Here,

    Check out my thread on gun selling definitions.

    ss
     
  5. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    goatskin,

    I believe an 1187 SC in this condition is not worth $550 plus shipping. If you, and others, believe so, that's why I posted this. I don't want to flame this guy if he doesn't deserve it.

    "Minty" to me does not mean scratches on the receiver down thru the bluing to the base metal. It does not mean the ding to the forearm.

    There was an area on the left side of the receiver that had some tape on it. That's where the to the metal scratches were. There were no pics in the gunbroker ad that showed that side of the receiver. When I used Hoppes 9 and removed the tape residue, the buggers were revealed.

    I believe a gun in this shape is worth 450-500.

    By the way, it was a reserve auction. On a previous "reserve not met" round, I emailed him and asked what the reserve was. He said it was $1 under the buy it now, which was $550. Why would anyone have a starting bid of $400, a reserve of $549 and a buy it now of $550? That is not rational.

    If anyone has an opinion, let me know. I am going to flame this guy in the feedback on gunbroker. He has read my email (we are both on aol), and has not responded.

    Danny
     
  6. nanuk

    nanuk TS Supporters TS Supporters

    Joined:
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    I "believe" gunbroker has a buyer protection policy---regardless of what the seller states. If you haven't had the gun that long, I would notify the seller and gunbroker of your disatisfaction with the transaction clearly stating the defects that you noted -verse- the condition stated in the auction.
    They also have a procedure/section for "resolving a problem with a seller".
    Click on the "for buyers" section at the top of their page.
    Hope you haven't waited too long. (If it were me, I would settle for nothing less than full return).
    good luck
    Bob
     
  7. jm1079

    jm1079 Well-Known Member

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    If you get stuck with the gun, you can always have it refinished with Metalife Glossy blue. You might end up being pleasantly surprised at the result. JM
     
  8. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    Danny, as I said above, that gun is nowhere near 'minty', and *EYE*, personally WOULD ding him in feedback.

    Perhaps you could mail him and ask for a return, since the gun was mis-described?

    At the end of the day - if he insists - you're stuck I think on an 'as-is' buy.

    Still, you didn't get gigged TOOOOO badly, even if you paid a slight premium.

    If that's the worst you ever get bit buying a gun, it's a cheap lesson, and I'd bet you can sell it locally for ±550.

    Bob
     
  9. sernv99

    sernv99 Active Member

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    I avoid gun auctions/ads that use catch phrases like "minty". Those types of phrases make the seller seem like a used car dealer. Also, "seen very few rounds"?? Come on, look at the condition of the gun in the pics. It had more than a "few rounds". You should send it back.

    other problems with the ad:

    "An exceptional shotgun hand selected from distributors stock for exceptional wood quality." more cheap used car dealer talk...RED ALERT RED ALERT

    "Anyone making stupid bids that remain at closing will be banned as I see fit." RED ALERT RED ALERT this guy obviously does not have customer service skills so that should had alerted you right away that trying to rectify anything with this seller would be hell to deal with.

    "[Information added 7/18/2010 7:23:08 PM] That three cents is really gonna put this bidder over the top !" Seller is trying hard as a used car salesman to sell this gun. If it was worth his asking price, he wouldn't need to stoop to the level of a used car salesman slug

    "[Information added 7/6/2010 2:53:46 PM] This is an 11-87 Model gun"
    "[Information added 7/18/2010 7:28:18 PM] NOTE: This gun has a 28" light contour barrel." These two edits he had to make tells me he doesn't know what the hell this gun is...I mean, when you sell a gun, you would think someone would list the barrel length in the description in the first place as well as the model. Avoid sellers selling something they have no clue about.
     
  10. Auctioneer

    Auctioneer Well-Known Member

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    You have a 3 day look over on any gun. In that time all you have to do is call the guy and say its sh!t and send it back. He misdiscribed the gun and mislead you. Send it back.

    I knew a guy who bought a SXS opened the box didn't pick the gun up closed the box and put send back to sender. It was junk and the sell knew it.
     
  11. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    I'm fairly serious about being fair about this, so I subscribed to Blue Book for a year, which I probably needed anyway. Here's the Blue Book:

    MODEL 11-87 SPORTING CLAYS Add to Collection
    - 12 ga. only, 26 (disc. 1996) or 28 in. VR barrel with extended Rem Choke (knurled extension chokes allow for no-wrench field changes), specially balanced, satin finished walnut, top metal surfaces have fine matte finish, radiused recoil pad, twin bead sights on 5/16 wide VR, 7 1/2 lbs. Mfg. 1992-1999.

    Grading 100%-$675, 98%-$575, 95%-$450, 90%-$395, 80%-$325

    Anyone want to take a shot at the condition, based on the pics? The wood is almost new, couple of marks that can be ignored, except the forearm issue which I can easily fix and it won't show. Honestly, the pic of the left side of the receiver, taken in that bright sunlight, makes it look worse than it really is, but to me it seems to be thru the bluing to the metal.

    Danny
     
  12. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    bump for change to last post.

    Danny
     
  13. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Don't tread water with fools.
     
  14. W.R.Buchanan

    W.R.Buchanan Member

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    Danny: I personally HATE this shit! And I would have not even bid on this for all of the above mentioned reasons. This guy's is a used car salesman. The crap about hand selected adds exactly nothing to the value of a Remington Generic gun, and when I see crap telling you how bitchin' a sows ear is I want to puke. Needless to say I would have clicked the down butto and moved on.

    Buying new guns sight unseen is risky business, buying used ones is REAL Risky!

    I bought a new Citori XT for a real good price last Xmas. $1950+30 shipping. When I got it it had a small but deep ding in the right side of the stock, which is why it was only $1950 instead of $2200. It was a factory blem, but this was not communicated. It was not a big deal to me as I was planning on puttng 100K rounds thru it before I sold it. And it would have been a major problem to send it back. So SWALLOWED and kept it. I don't really regret that choice but,,,

    Now I want an XT combo, which means I DO want to sell it, and that ding is worth probably -$100 from what I could get for a new gun with only 1000 rnds thru it, and no dings period. It doesn't take very much to go from 100% perfect to below 95%, because when there are that few dings they really show up alot better, and appear much worse.

    There was a guy on here a few months ago selling an old Browning A5 it was advertsied as "95% + original condition". He was asking $1400.00 for the gun!

    You could clearly see all of the engraving on the side of the receiver was washed out from where it had been buffed before rebluing, and the stock was a joke, it had been sanded and sprayed with some sort of clear shit and the checkering which was clearly worn had not even been masked. This gun was well used to say the least.

    I told the guy outright he didn't know what he ws talking about, his gun was not even in NRA "Good" condition let alone 95%+ Original, and posted a picture of MY A5 which IS in 95%+ original condition including Full and Modified barrels and Browning hard case, as purchased by my favorite uncle in 1965 and given to me in 1995. It had 22 rounds thru it when I got it. It IS worth $14-1500, on a good day to the right guy which I hope will show up in about 25 years when I'm ready to sell it. I have no heirs. Poor me?

    Point is, this guy was not a regular here, and he had no idea what he was talking about. He had only signed up to sell this gun so he didn't give a shit if he misrepresented it or not. His gun was worth $250-300 on a good day.

    No one else answered that post and I never saw the gun again.

    People's ideas of what their shit is worth is most times different than reality, I'm a Real Estate Appraiser also so I see this often. But any regular on this site will pretty much call it like it is, and at least be willing to provide good pictures of every portion on the gun. Also most guys here actually know what the different levels of condition are, and will not mis represent for fear of being flamed by the many people here who really do know the difference.

    Luckily you were only in this gun $550. Think how pissed you'd be if there was another zero tacked on the back end? Then you'd really have something to achieve orbit about.

    Like they said above if you don't want it you can probably sell it locally to you for what you've got in it. It could have been much worse, and I think you'll never do that again.

    Good luck down the road. Don't let this one relatively mild bad experience sour you on buying guns in general. But in the end, it is always better to buy face to face.

    Randy
     
  15. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    The term "minty" should be a red flag in and of itself. Unless it tastes "minty."
     
  16. cubancigar2000

    cubancigar2000 Well-Known Member

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    Danny, you are a way better person than to nit pick this idiot. Chalk it uo to experience and never bid on a gun represented as this one was again. I have sold to you and I know your integrity, just move on
     
  17. Remington STS

    Remington STS TS Member

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    Love a good old Gun Broker oops!
     
  18. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    In closing, here is the feedback I left for this seller. Probably should have graded it a "D," but I gave it a "C" as I felt I was somewhat responsible for not asking more questions, not getting better pics, and bidding on an AS IS auction. It didn't help that the seller told me I should have asked more questions, so he knows he was being dishonest.

    "C: Disagreed on condition of gun. Bluing wear, scratches & pitting not shown or described. Ad said minty. Not even 90% IMO. Beware AS IS auctions, get good pics & details from THIS SELLER. Not a $550 gun"

    Thanks for all who replied. This whole, drawn-out process will help me be more careful in future.

    Danny
     
  19. SevenMaryThree

    SevenMaryThree Member

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    That's a $350 gun.
     
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