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Good for you Neil, but how

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by gundog, Oct 11, 2007.

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  1. gundog

    gundog TS Member

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    Neil i see in this months Trap and Field you recognize the need to control the cost of trap shooting. How are you going to do this? I wish you the best of luck, It sure has to be done.
     
  2. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    The shrinking market might shock a few of the suppliers of ammunition and targets into giving us a break but I doubt it.

    Raw materials don't show any signs of going down, and unfortunately ammo used in clay target shooting is still a miniscule portion of the total sales.

    Get out the Preparation H.

    HM
     
  3. Beancounter

    Beancounter TS Member

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    I think state orgs and above need to reduce or eliminate minimum target requirements if they want to have sucessful state, zone, baby grand, etc. People are not going to shoot penalty with the high ammo prices and some cannot afford to shoot enough targets to meet high target count requirements.

    Beyond that, I don't have a clue. If we all agreed to provide only token trophies, entry fees could be reduced by at least four cents. I don't see that as much of a savings. Target prices are not the big ticket and despite the moaning, target prices do not significantly contribute to shoot attendance.
     
  4. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    To reduce, or slow down the rate of increase, the cost of shooting will take some work by us. Not much we can do about the cost of lead or the price of pitch used to make targets, but we could help reduce the cost of operating a gun club and hosting an ATA shoot.

    If one person from each club would take over the job of getting scorers for each shoot and recruit these scorers as volunteers, our cost would go down. At all times during a shoot, some very fine shooter/scorers are just sitting around and many of them would be pleased to help. If a second person would take on the job of mowing the grass at the club and another assume the task of loading the houses and setting the targets, our cost would decrease. Another person could take over the job of buying trophies and try to get some support from local businesses, the cost of shooting would go down.

    So often, we want someone else to reduce the cost of shooting trap for us, but we are not willing to to something about reducing the cost.

    If Neil would shoot at my club (He could stay at my home free), he would climb up onto the scoring stand for a few rounds while I was shooting.

    Pat Ireland
     
  5. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Pulldude, thanks for reading that. One thing that comes to mind is is cutting back on the common practice of adding a few dollars to the cost of 100 targets and giving it back to winners - the $25 per hundred with $4 back kind of thing. There are options to get a similar result, after all, and those who want to pay can (but don't have to.)

    When I started shooting in 1982 a case (500) of shells was $100 at home, $105 at the Silver dollar. Shells are surely cheaper now when inflation is considered. Hard shot was over $25 a bag in 1982 as well. But the main problem now is that _everything_ has become so expensive. My gas bill to shoot the SW Grand is way, way more than the targets for the whole week, and even though the Great Lakes Grand is half as far away, travel and targets are about equal. No one can believe what motels cost and so on.

    The big 50 will help and I expect it to continue to grow. Maybe more 50-bird events on weekends? Possibly. We are shortening the Grand to match the "old" system (Wednesday to the next-week's Saturday) but that raises the ratio of travel-to-target cost, doesn't it?

    The ATA will keep costs down as well. The office breaks even, the Grand breaks even plus a bit of profit, and we can keep going like that for quite a while in my opinion.

    It's going to be important to keep local clubs shooting since travel costs are such a killer. The ATA's "Gun Club" fund will eventually help here, but that's going to take time. So far renewals and fees are holding up and we can just hope that continues.

    The problem is that every "fix" has problems of its own. Many think there are too many Satellite Grands already (hurting small clubs) but if there were more a lot of shooters wouldn't have to drive as far. And so on.

    The ATA coach program will do its part in reducing cost once there are coaches in many clubs who can speed our members' learning, help them hit with the gun they have instead of getting a new one, and, in general, reduce the considerable cost of learning to shoot.

    Neil
     
  6. motrap

    motrap Member

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    NEIL: "The office breaks even,......"

    What does this fact mean?

    Rudy
     
  7. clayshooter53

    clayshooter53 TS Member

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    Neil:
    I don't know you personally, but your name pops up on this forum a lot and I respect your comments and information. Secondly, congrats on your election to ATA President. Now to the point: a number of years ago the small club to which I am a (life) member used to be a very busy place. On Tuesday nights the club offers open trap shooting. In the early part of the season Tuesday night was very busy with registered shoots (100 - 16s, 100 hdcp., and 50 pr if time permitted). THEN, the ATA changed the target year and the bottom fell out of the registered events on Tuesdays. Shooters would flock to the club to get the needed targets for the coming year; then when the new target year came about that need vaporized. To add to that, the Northeastern Grand American Satellite Grand came to be in the "NEW" target year and the need for small clubs like mine saw fewer and fewer shooters attending small club events. In the past couple of years the club has had a very difficult time getting enough entrants to hold an event. Even our ATA Club Championship shoot has been a bust the last couple of years with only 3 - 4 shooters coming out to challenge the clays. I am in full agreement with you about the cost of _EVERYTHING_ getting way too expensive. When I got into shooting some 40+ years ago, yes it was expensive (at that time) but my family was able to see its way to participate. NOW, because of the cost and a very stingy employer I have again had to back away from shooting registered events and even most practice days. I shoot, maybe once or twice a month in local 50 target leagues; but that is just about it. I can see a lot of folks in the same position in which I find myself having to back down their shooting, with some event hanging up their guns and not shooting at all. For me it is a release to go out and smoke some clays especially now that I am more in tuned with all of the neuances of shooting (gun fit, stance, looking at the target and not the gun, etc), and am back to breaking some good scores; and the commradary (sp) with friends can't be overlooked as that refreshes the soul. I do hope you will have some influence in reducing the cost of registered shooting but, I think it will be a long and difficult up hill battle. God Bless you and may your tenure as ATA President be a successful one.
    Bill Palermo
    Ontario Rod & Gun Club Inc.
    Ontario NY
     
  8. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Unless there is a way to control the target manufacture, the trap machine manufacture, the trap machine maintenance contract, the local utilities company, the local tax assessor, the local club improvements, the ammunition manufactures and a hole host of other people that must be paid to be able to shoot our sport ... just how in the hell are you going to control anything other than the ATA portion of the expense of trap shooting which is about the cheapest part of it all now?

    Is this just some sort of good publicity campaign for the ATA cause of the dwindling number of shooters who are bailing because of the high costs?
     
  9. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Geez Lumper give the President a break. He is going to do what he can to keep the ATA costs down to a bare minimum to help keep the costs down for registered shoots and you want to bust his targets for it.

    Your an idiot Lumper ... you always have been and I always will be but just give the guy a freaking break already.

    Heck just look at what he said ... "break even" ... yep ... he is going to run the ATA as a break even operation. Yeah I know what your thinking Mr Lumper that most "break even" operations are always just a stumbling step away from total disaster but the ATA has a couple million in the bank and they can sponge off that for a long time after Neil and even the president after Neil leaves so why worry about breaking even now?

    Seriously though is that what your planning on Neil? To scrimp and starve to the point and worry about making a profit at all and when needed to steal from the banked profit reserves in the bank generated from ...

    BTW ... before the move the sale of the land and such in Ohio just how much money was in the bank?
     
  10. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Good grief Lumper ... quit trying to stir the pot up into some sort of turmoilish quagmire of crud while trying to smear Neil and the ATA with a bunch of cruddy accusations of this or that.

    The ATA and Neil are doing the very best that they can do and deserve our utmost praise and respect for there diligent efforts to make our sport a happy and enjoyable sport for us all.

    Now if they could only do something about the target managers at the various shoots that tend to spoil it all for the honest participants.
     
  11. hubcap

    hubcap TS Member

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    Lumper are you off your medication .............. again?????
     
  12. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Rick ... I already have, already do and will seek more help again. The only problem is the help I have gotten, am getting and will get more of aint really working to improve my shooting. Yes there currently is 3 less voices in my head but until the all the others are gone ... well it could be considered a start to a major improvement.

    Yes ... I have been off my medication since Sunday afternoon. I'm going to try and get another dose of meds tomorrow and if not tomorrow then on Sunday instead.
     
  13. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    1. If you want your club, and your ATA shoots to prosper, you have to recruit and retain new members who can afford the game and charge enough to deliver a quality product.

    2. The ATA should be providing marketing and customer service programs in-a-box to help clubs recruit and retain members who can afford the game.

    We can't control costs of ammunition, transportation, targets etc. We can recruit members who can afford those costs.
     
  14. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    There are a few ways the ATA could reduce the costs.

    First they could go to the 1 Oz (or less) loads. This would be good all the way around.

    Next they could go to the 3 hole target that would reduce the number of shoot offs and improve competition.

    Other than that there is not much ATA can do.

    TB
     
  15. buckwheat

    buckwheat TS Member

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    Neil,
    Congratulations on your election to the Big Chair. With the high cost of lead a change to 1 oz loads might be a good choice. If the rules allowed 2 oz of lead thats what most would shoot. You might even consider going to the 7/8 oz load.

    The change in the target year to me, means why bother shooting any registered after the Grand, until the beginning of the new target year? I am fortunate to have two clubs in close proximity, and can shoot two (2), fifty bird derbys on a Saturday. Total travel expenses, maybe $6.00, total enty fees $30, and the chance to win more than I could win at a local registered shoot with 10 squads. It makes not shooting registered a no brainer.
    Dan
     
  16. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Just a slight thought ... for those who do not reload, which is a very high percentage of shooters the price difference between a 1oz and a 1-1/8oz factory load is nothing, they cost the same so just how would that help reduce the cost to the highest percentage of shooters?

    Changing the rules to either a 3 or even a 4 hole setting would change the hell out of many scores and really piss a large bunch of shooters off ... I say do it and do it NOW. The ATA needs a good stirring to revitalize itself and to bring in new shooters. Dont worry ... it wont cause a drop in shooters in the long run. Many who will scream will still shoot and those that will leave because they will not be able to handle the new competition will be replaced by new shooters.

    Dont change the guideline on shells, unless you do it to make the game more competitive but do change the guidelines on targets to make it more competitive.
     
  17. Jerry944t

    Jerry944t Well-Known Member

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    At our club we have two decrete populations of shooters, those that must register targets or they won't shoot and those that will not register targets and don't show up on ATA days.

    The present ATA rule does not allow practice shooters to shoot on the same squad with registered shooters so automatically some shooters are left out and down goes the potential revenues.

    If all parties are amenable I don't see the problem of mixing registered with non registered shooters thereby incleasing the amount of shooters on any given day.

    I just don't see the downside of relaxing that particular rule and I know it would increase revenues at my club which is feeling the financial pinch of less shooters.

    Jerry Weger
     
  18. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    They all must shoot the same field so why not let them all shoot together.

    Sounds like segregation and discrimination to me ... does anyone have the number to NAACP and the ACLU?

    Just kidding ...
     
  19. Jerry944t

    Jerry944t Well-Known Member

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    Rick, many people don't join the ATA because they just don't want their scores to go on their permanent record or they don't enjoy the competition of an ATA event or .....whatever. That doesen't mean they aren't good safe shooters so I respect their decision.

    I have no problem with them shooting on my squad and I certainly, as club treasurer, appreciate their revenue. To exclude them is just cutting our own throats, in my opinion.

    This isn't really cutting expenses which the original poster suggested but it is increasing revenues which has the same result. Besides the more targets we can throw, with all other factors being equal, the less we need to charge for a round, practice or registered.

    Jerry
     
  20. gundog

    gundog TS Member

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    Jerry944t you are right. More money for the club, as long as the ATA shooters on a squad dont mind i say go for it. As we all know a club has to put targets in the air to make money. The more a club makes the more they can keep costs down. Thats the kind of out of the box thinking we need in the ATA. Are you an ATA delegate? If not you sure should be.
     
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