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Gold Coin Sellers Angered by New Tax Law

Discussion in 'Politics, Elections & Legislation' started by Jerbear, Jul 21, 2010.

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  1. Jerbear

    Jerbear TS Member

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    Amendment Slipped Into Health Care Legislation Would Track, Tax Coin Bullion Trans.


    Gold Coin Sellers Angered by New Tax Law

    Amendment Slipped Into Health Care Legislation Would Track, Tax Coin and Bullion Transactions

    By RICH BLAKE

    July 21, 2010—

    Those already outraged by the president's health care legislation now have a new bone of contention -- a scarcely noticed tack-on provision to the law that puts gold coin buyers and sellers under closer government scrutiny.

    The issue is rising to the fore just as gold coin dealers are attracting attention over sales tactics.

    Section 9006 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will amend the Internal Revenue Code to expand the scope of Form 1099. Currently, 1099 forms are used to track and report the miscellaneous income associated with services rendered by independent contractors or self-employed individuals.

    Coin Dealers Flipping

    Starting Jan. 1, 2012, Form 1099s will become a means of reporting to the Internal Revenue Service the purchases of all goods and services by small businesses and self-employed people that exceed $600 during a calendar year. Precious metals such as coins and bullion fall into this category and coin dealers have been among those most rankled by the change.

    This provision, intended to mine what the IRS deems a vast reservoir of uncollected income tax, was included in the health care legislation ostensibly as a way to pay for it. The tax code tweak is expected to raise $17 billion over the next 10 years, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation.

    Taking an early and vociferous role in opposing the measure is the precious metal and coin industry, according to Diane Piret, industry affairs director for the Industry Council for Tangible Assets. The ICTA, based in Severna Park, Md., is a trade association representing an estimated 5,000 coin and bullion dealers in the United States.

    "Coin dealers not only buy for their inventory from other dealers, but also with great frequency from the public," Piret said. "Most other types of businesses will have a limited number of suppliers from which they buy their goods and products for resale."

    So every time a member of the public sells more than $600 worth of gold to a dealer, Piret said, the transaction will have to be reported to the government by the buyer.

    Pat Heller, who owns Liberty Coin Service in Lansing, Mich., deals with around 1,000 customers every week. Many are individuals looking to protect wealth in an uncertain economy, he said, while others are dealers like him.
    With spot market prices for gold at nearly $1,200 an ounce, Heller estimates that he'll be filling out between 10,000 and 20,000 tax forms per year after the new law takes effect.

    "I'll have to hire two full-time people just to track all this stuff, which cuts into my profitability," he said.

    An issue that combines gold coins, the Obama health care law and the IRS is bound to stir passions. Indeed, trading in gold coins and bars has surged since the financial crisis unfolded and Obama took office, metal dealers said.

    The buying of actual gold, as opposed to futures or options tied to the price of gold, has been a particularly popular trend among Tea Party supporters and others who are fearful of Obama's economic policies, gold industry members such as Heller and Piret said. Conservative/libertarian commentators, such as Fox News Channel's Glenn Beck, routinely tout precious metal on the air as being a safe, shrewd investment in an environment in which the financial system -- and paper money backed by the rest of the world's faith in the U.S. government's credit -- is viewed as increasingly fragile.

    The recently revealed investigation by California authorities into consumer complaints against Goldline International, which has used Beck as a pitchman, and Superior Gold Group (which has not) has put a spotlight on what one liberal leaning politician, Rep. Anthony Weiner, D-N.Y., calls the "unholy alliance" between gold coin sellers, such as Goldline, and conservative talk personalities, such as Beck.

    Beck, who through his spokesman, Matt Hiltzik, declined to comment for this story, and Goldline marketers portray gold coins as a better alternative to owning bullion in the event that the U.S. government ever decides, as it did under FDR in 1933, to make it illegal for private citizens to own physical gold. At that time, the U.S. dollar was still pegged to the price of gold; the gold standard was abandoned during the Nixon administration.

    Rep. Daniel Lungren, R-Calif., has introduced legislation to repeal the section of the health care bill that would trigger the new tax reporting requirement because he says it's a burden on small businesses.

    "Large corporations have whole divisions to handle such transaction paperwork but for a small business, which doesn't have the manpower, this is yet another brick on their back," Lungren said in a statement e-mailed to ABCNews.com. "Everyone agrees that small businesses are job creators and the engine which drives the American economy. I am dumfounded that this Administration is doing all it can to make it more difficult for businesses to succeed rather than doing all it can to help them grow."

    The ICTA's Piret says identity theft is another concern because criminals may set up shops specifically to extract personal information that would accompany the filing out of a 1099.

    The office of the National Taxpayer Advocate, a citizen's ombudsman within the IRS, issued a report June 30 that said the new rule "may present significant administrative challenges to taxpayers and the IRS."


    Copyright © 2010 ABC News Internet Ventures


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    What's next.... 1099 on face to face gun sales?


    Jerbear
     
  2. slowdp

    slowdp TS Member

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    is this going to force gun dealers to report guns bought over $600 from people. You are going to pay income tax on guns you sell to dealers.
     
  3. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    What has this got to do with health care?

    Mark
     
  4. slowdp

    slowdp TS Member

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    It is just a ploy for the Democraps to get more tax dollars. You will not be able to get away with anything.
     
  5. 221

    221 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Business has to do the IRS deal......It's time the individuals pay their share.

    I know of way to many "full time" part timers that don't pay taxes. They think that cash sales .....means their exempt.

    Remember the days when everyone was a used car dealer????
     
  6. Bob Schultz

    Bob Schultz Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Now you know why I support the Tea Party! Throw the bums out!

    Bob
     
  7. ryanhammer

    ryanhammer TS Member

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    While I'm NOT a fan of taxes, I have to agree with 221. When I go to my job every day, I get to pay taxes on the money I make. Why is it that some schmoe gets to sell a bunch of gold, and he doesn't have to pay taxes on that? Like I said, I like taxes even less than I like democrats, but fair is fair. RH
     
  8. Bisi

    Bisi TS Member

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    ryanhammer, just remember fair is fair when they 1099 for your health insurance if it is provided by your employer.

    Will individuals have to send 1099s to the grocery store, after all they will have spent more than $600 a year at the grocery store.
     
  9. Jim101

    Jim101 Active Member

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    I say screw em. I will still go out of my way to avoid paying taxes to the thieving SOBs.




    Jim
     
  10. 221

    221 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    bisi....every cent that you spend at a grocery store is accounted for. Now, if you did more than 600.00's worth of work for them....ie....snow removal.... you can bet your going to get one..

    Don't you guys understand anything....

    When you start to pay 50-75% of your income to support the riffraff your attitude will change

    BTW grocery stores work on very little profit, like 2%, that's why they are all closing up.

    Only one thing I hate worse than paying taxes is those who cheat and don't pay theirs
     
  11. The Rock

    The Rock Active Member

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    Well we "first had to pass the bill to see what is in the bill".

    And you ain't seen nothing yet!

    Rock

    Jim
     
  12. oz

    oz Active Member

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    why should/would you pay taxes on gold (COINS) they are USA money. that would be like cashing your paycheck (after paying all the taxes) and then paying another tax at the bank. soon we will be giving everying to the government and getting an allowance of whatever the burecrats feel like giving to us. oz
     
  13. 221

    221 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    oz....<EM>"why should/would you pay taxes on gold (COINS) they are USA money. that would be like cashing your paycheck (after paying all the taxes) and then paying another tax at the bank."</EM>

    Thats brilliant. Did you just drop in from Greece. ROFLMAO

    It gets easier to understand why these laws appear to be written by idiots, especially when you hear the reasoning by those that think their exempt.
     
  14. Lobo

    Lobo TS Member

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    From the old pawn shop man, look at old US gold coins. They escaped FDR. Come in various sizes, $1(tiny) 2 1/2, 5, 10, $20. Nuministic value along with the gold and US minted. Same with pre65 silver coinage. I also held back some good heavy 14K chains. Wife likes to wear them, easy to sell and NO SERIAL NUMBERS.
     
  15. Bisi

    Bisi TS Member

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    Just sitting here and trying to figure out how many 1099s we would have to send out if this would apply toward our little trap shooting club.

    Electric company

    Insurance company

    Propane company

    Gasoline company - lawn mower, tractor fuel

    1st clay target, shot, powder, supplier,

    2nd clay target supplier,

    Guy we buy our wads from

    Bread company - hotdog, hamburger buns, bread

    Meat company that we buy our hotdogs, hamburgers,

    Grocery store that we purchase turkeys from for our winter meat shoots

    Little Debbie guy we buy snacks from

    Sams club - paper plates, soap, paper towels, etc..

    Gravel company - rock for our roads

    Trucking guy who delivers the rock

    Farm Bureau Co-op - fertilizer, weed killer, oil, parts, for tractors etc…

    Potato chip guy

    Care taker

    Printing company - that prints our newsletter

    Trash disposal company - dumpster

    Grass mowing

    Home Depot - lumber, paint, nails, we are always building something

    Coca-Cola guy

    Candy bar vendor

    And if I thought real hard, I could probably come up with at least another half dozen. And our clubs doesn't deal in guns, just think how many 1099s a for profit gun club will have to send out.

    We can't get anybody now who wants to be on the board and do the treasury's job, now adding having to send out 25 1099s!!!!!!
     
  16. 221

    221 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    bisi.....and to think all those poor bastards who provide those services have to account for all their income and pay taxes. Whoooodaa thought. Sooner or later they may just say screw it and demand their share of the entitlements.

    Maybe business should boycott non profits.....that won't happen cuz they would rather work their asses off so the rest of you can get off easy.
     
  17. ryanhammer

    ryanhammer TS Member

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    Like I said, I am NOT a fan of our current tax rate or system or the entire way it is handled or spent or anything. With that said, is it ok for one guy to go out and make his money, then pay half of it to a bunch of crooks? No. It is even less fair for another guy to go out and make his money, and hide it from the crooks. In theory, that guy hiding what he made, make my taxes increase. It's the same as the illegal alien arguement. We make money, then pay taxes. They make money, and pay none. In theory, that makes our taxes higher, because, if they were paying thier share, the IRS wouldn't need as much from us. That's all I'm saying. This is all based on theory, nothing more. Another good example would be waiters. They pay taxes on the 2.15 an hour that they make, by law, and they are in turn supposed to pay taxes on the cash tips they receive. Most fudge hard on that, I'm certain. Is that fair to you to pay your half, no. It is even less fair that they aren't paying the same that you are. RH
     
  18. Bisi

    Bisi TS Member

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    How do we know all these people are cheating on their taxes?

    Anymore it's not innocent until proven guilty, now it's you're guilty until you prove that your innocent.

    Fill those 1099s and prove to us you don't owe. Great concept.
     
  19. ryanhammer

    ryanhammer TS Member

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    I regress. Occasionally I can admit when I am wrong. Thanks for the correction, and for being civil about it. Sincerely RH
     
  20. j2jake

    j2jake Well-Known Member

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    We should all be outraged by what is going on in KoolAde town. Jake
     
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