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Getting A Punch ???

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by miketmx, Mar 23, 2008.

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  1. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    I just found a Rule Book from 1987 and a score of 96 got the automatic half yard and a 97-98-or 99 got a yard and 100 straight got 1 1/2 yards. Earned Yardage Table 15-24 shooters 1st got 1/2 yard. 25-49 shooters 1st 1 yard 2nd 1/2 yard; 50-124 shooters 1 yard 1/2 yard and 1/2 yard for 3rd high score; 125-249 shooters 1 yard 1 yard and 1/2 yard; 250-499 shooters 1 1/2 yard, 1 yard, 1/2 yard and 1/2 yard; 500-1499 shooters 2 yards 1 1/2 yard 1 yard and 1/2 yard; 1500 and up 5 high scores and all ties 2 1/2 yards down to 1/2 yard for 5th high score.
     
  2. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    In 71 a 96=1/2 and 97=1yd it seems and has been this way or high score and down depending ofcourse on the amount of contestants.
     
  3. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    I do not remember when the 1/2 yard started to be awarded (or penalized) for 96's. I started in late 60's and they did not punch 96. But in those days a 96 would probably either win or be runnerup. Much has changed since. The 96 today is, in my personal opinion, detrimental to the sport. For that matter I truly believe we should eliminate score punches. Punch only by placement. High scores like 99 or 100 would more than likely get punched.

    Today we have far too many shooters standing on the 27 who have never won a tournament. They are not qualified to stand there. - Jim
     
  4. BMC

    BMC Member

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    Jim, I've won handicap champion three times in the past 14 months that I've been shooting registered, and I'm still not on the 27. I have some friends on the 27 who haven't won a cap event, but got there through the punch system. They earned it as it should be. Myself personally, I shoot handicap for one reason. And that reason is to shoot a 96 or better to get a punch. Many I know share the same philosophy when it comes to caps. At most ranges it is very, very difficult to shoot a 96 in handicap. Maybe I'm missing the point, and don't take this the wrong way, but I don't understand why someone would be concerned about whether or not people on the 27 got there with a win or not.
     
  5. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    what's a punch? lol
     
  6. Pocatello

    Pocatello Active Member

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    Jim, I've seen you argue here lots of times for the elimination of the score punch, at least for a 96. The reason you give is that it is too easy to move back. My question is why a winning score is more meritorious for a punch than a high score? If a person breaks an 87 to win over 14 other shooters, s/he deserves a punch, where in a different shoot someone who breaks 96 but doesn't win does not deserve a punch, if someone else breaks more? Another popular thread topic is that the difficulty of targets needs to be increased so perfect scores become more rare, because the perfect scores or nearly so discourage new shooters. See the many two-hole versus three-hole threads. My recollection is that you support this argument. How does making it much more difficult to earn punches and keeping most shooters at short yardage not discourage new shooters? Most of the new shooters start shooting D class singles scores, and worse than that in handicap. They would see experienced shooters breaking MUCH better scores in handicap than they shoot in singles, and staying at the same short yardage. That's a real inducement for the new shooter to stick around. And for shooters like Jerry and me, who see a punch as an award for a job well done, what's our incentive to stay if you make a punch virtually impossible to achieve?
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Different shooters strive to accomplish different things shooting trap. Some want to win money and trophies at major events. Others will never shoot in a major event. Some want to complete an event with a score that satisfies them. A singles score of 93 is excellent for some shooters but might not be rewarding to others. Some believe a punch is a penalty. Others believe a punch is an honer that is greater than winning a trophy.

    It is impossible to develop a handicap system that recognizes all of the varied shooters goals. Our current handicap system is somewhat of a compromise between the two groups that believe a punch is an honer and a punch is a penalty. A good compromise makes neither side completely happy and I believe we now have one that accomplishes this.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Mr. Ireland has summed it up. A wise old attorney once told me that if both sides are unhappy, you have achieved a fair deal.

    Don
     
  9. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    First I do not shoot for money. My concern is the health of this sport. Yes today we face difficult economic times and that will be felt. However up until this past year we were in truly great times. Our sport was declining during that period as well.

    My feeling about elimination of score punches simply is the fact today, when the weather gets nice, scores of 96 & 97 don't place for anything. Yes they are excellent scores but my feelings are that as a shooter progresses in ability he/she will shoot even higher scores. It may take longer to reach to 27 but if will seem far more rewarding.

    There are a lot of that also believe it should be easier to obtain reductions. And a great many shooters do accept reductions when offered. - Jim
     
  10. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    I posted the following from another thread.


    We are in the middle of our state shoot and it appears Brent Epperson has won the first 2 handicaps with a 100 and 99.


    When Brent broke his 100 and 99 yesterday there were several 98 and 97s. Additionally there were at least 2 short yardage shooters who broke 96s that will be getting 1/2 yards. I can't see how giving these two shooters yardage does anything to help the sport.


    The problem in my opinion is these automatic punches are not relevant anymore given todays easy target presentation. If a shooter shoots well enough to win or tie according to the current earned yardage table well and good, thats how it's suppose to be, but a score of 96 or above at shoots where the scores are high like above is nothing but punishment.


    The earned yardage table based on attendance for the two handicaps mentioned above were


    1 yard for first, 1 yard for second, and 1/2 yard for third for the first handicap and 1 1/2 yard for first, 1 yard for second, and 1/2 yard for third.


    Based on the above table alone no one who shot a 96 would have been punched but because of the automatic punch provision for score 23 additional shooters received a 1/2 including 7 who were not on the 27.


    John Q Trap Shooter as before you just don't understand.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  11. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Just to put an exclamation mark on my opinion of John Q lets assume I'm the win at all costs, money playing, kill em all, let the winner take all handicap shooter John Q repeatedly consistently brings up in his post.


    If that were the case I'd be in favor of lowering the automatic punch provision to say 94 rather than eliminating it. That way every new shooter (and potential payday for me shooter) would quickly transition back to a yardage where they would be easy pickings. Nothing is better for me as a die in the wool money shooter than an over handicapped shooter thats playing the money.


    What I want is for a new shooter not to get discouraged because they are shooting so so scores and are moving too quickly to become proficient and eventually quit the sport.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  12. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    If a shooter gets a 96 and a 1/2 yard punch is becomes over handicapped, that only remains for 1000 targets. That is not difficult to get this time of year if a shooter attends large shoots. If the shooter only attends small shoots, the 96 very probably was the high score at the shoot. Plus, we can't forget about the many shooters who would rather win a punch than a trophy.

    Pat Ireland
     
  13. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    John Q and others. I have shot Northern CA and Nevada for years. During the summer months most small shoots 50 to 75 shooters are won with 98 or better.
    That has been the norm for years. My feelings are as posted above. Shooting a 96 is respectable but continually punching these scores overhandicaps a lot of shooters. As someone posted above and I also know shooters that have never won a handicap event. They shoot poor handicap scores from the 27.

    Please don't tell me about not caring whether you win is important. The only people I see turning down trophies, whether they be singles, doubles or handicap are shooters that have won more that most of us can count. Maybe you believe I am on my high horse. But I do not believe that. I can count my handcap wins on my fingers. I have always accepted the reductions offered. I
    just received a reduction to 26 and I will take it. I would take a reduction to 24 if they would give it to me. I always try to shoot the best I can. I do
    not consider myself a great shooter. In fact unless a I shoot a great deal my scores are rather poor. But I will shoot Sunday and hope I win. We all have our objectives and priorities. One of my priorities is to see this sport continue to prosper. - Jim Ellliott
     
  14. stokinpls

    stokinpls Well-Known Member

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    Give EVERYONE the MOST chances to WIN in their career. You should only get a punch if you won. Not tied, won. If you get beat out, you come back next shoot with the same chance to win again, last week's winner is back a yard.

    Guess the clubs wouldn't like the shootoff expense, but it would keep people's interest longer in this sport than the system they use now.

    Nothing like being half-yard punched to the 27 yard line with nothing to show for it and nothing to look forward to but scores in the 80's. It isn't long before you start finding something else to do on Sundays.
     
  15. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    Russ 25 - From what you are saying 96's will more than likely win the handicap in your area. That is fine. I am in favor of the placement punch system. I simply do not believe being punch for a 96 or 97 is fair when the top scores are 98 or 99. Reading between the lines of what you are saying. It is ok to win with a 96 in your area, and receive a placement punch, but it is ok to shoot 96 in areas when the scores are much higher and still get a punch. Seems like you favor penalties for shooting under better shooting conditions.

    You see if my wish to eliminate the score punch was accepted. The punches would be the same all over the country. Placement. Earn to punch by winning or shooting a high placement score. - Jim
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Jim Elliott- I see one point that might help explain out different opinions. You stated that the small shoots (50-75 entries) in your area are typically won with scores of 97 and higher. In my area, a shoot with 50-75 entries is not considered to be a small shoot. To me, a small shoot has 3-20 entries. Twenty five entries is at least a medium sized shoot and 50 shooters is getting toward the big side. A 96 will win many shoots with 15 entries and might not win at a shoot with 75 entries. One difference we have is the definition of a small shoot.

    Over the year, it is my opinion that more targets are shot at shoots with fewer than 25 entries than all of the shoots with over 25 entries. These are the small shoots I refer to when I state that the small local shoots are the backbone of the ATA.

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    Pat - Other than large shoots, most of the shoots I attend have over 50 shooters. We have 5 clubs within 100 mile radius with 8 or more traps. Usual attendance at thos shoots is over 75 per day. Sometimes over the 100 mark.
    We also have several smaller clubs with 4 or 5 traps. Due to size they can only handle attendances of 50 to 60 shooters. Most of the time they will average over 40.

    As I see it score punches are awarded at shoots with over 15 shooters, as follows:
    15-39 1/2 yard
    40-69 1 yard
    70 - 124 1 yd 1st and 1/2 yard second high scores.

    How let us compare. If you shoot a 96 high score in your state with 30 shooters you get 1/2 yard. A second hight score of will not get anything.
    If you shoot a high score of 98 at our average shoot of let us say 50 shooters
    the 98 gets 1 yard. But a 97 will also get 1 yard under the score rule. and
    any 96's will get also get 1/2 yard under the score rule.

    So in your area only the high score gets punched (1/2 yard)
    In our area 3 scores get punched.

    Do you see why I feel the score punches should be eliminated. Heck 98, 99 or 100 will get the punchs anyway. I was involved in the operation of the Sacramento club for over 10 years. Even in winter months (unless is was really windy) handicaps were won with scores of 96 and up, usually up.

    And dear Kissable. I would be lucky, when I did play the monies, which was
    only at large shoots, if I got back 10% of what it cost me to shoot. Not considering ammo., food, lodging, and travel. Yep I am certainly a money shooter. Like many I will wager occasionally. Most people like to gamble, very few make any money from it. Let me ask you, have you ever played any
    purse, options and/or lewis's? - Jim
     
  18. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Wanker

    Try and stay on message.


    This thread is about earning punches, its not about throwing 3-hole targets. You don't have to throw 3-hole targets in order to fix the automatic punch portion of the earned table, you just need to change it if it needs fixing.


    The answer to your following question is no.
    "Mr. Elliot and Mr. Hauser did you ever object to shoot management or lodge a formal complaint?"


    I stopped shooting in 1981/82 and did not resume until 2000.


    Now do you actually have an opinion about the earned yardage table??


    Jerry Hauser
     
  19. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't that long ago (maybe 5 years) that the Earned Yardage Table was tweaked a little bit under the leadership of Delegate Tom Ford. The reduction trigger point was also raised in some ATA zones. The combined effect made it a little harder to get a punch and a little easier to get a reduction. It probably took about 3 years or so for the dust to settle and some shooters to actually get enough targets for reductions to kick in. These estimates are strictly my own but I think a little "tweaking" does make a difference. Elimination of the automatic half yard would theoretically slow down a too rapid rise to the 27 and make it easier to get a reduction instead of having it voided by the punch. The PITA does not have an automatic punch for a 96. I wonder if PITA shooters have similar complaints about fixing the Handicap System or are they stuck at their ATA yardage because they register in both associations and must shoot from the longest yardage ??
     
  20. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    John Q Trap Shooter


    1) Changing the earned yardage table has zero effect on top shooters. If you think otherwise then please explain?


    2) My earlier post said the earned yardage table in 1982 was set up to make it easier for a shooter to get yardage however because of the more difficult target presentation it appears they simply weren't getting as many yards.


    One final item. If in fact you would still be on the 20 or 21 yard line without the help of the automatic punch system that is how the system is supposed to work. It was never about making shooters feel good it was about handicapping them fairly. In your case if you cant shoot good enough to get off the 21 yard line then you really should remain where you are. Right now it sounds like your over handicapped.


    Jerry Hauser.
     
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