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GD load w/Rem Hull

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Mark V, Jul 3, 2009.

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  1. Mark V

    Mark V Member

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    I'm looking for an 1 1/8 load using GD, Rem hull, Fio616 primer, 12S3 wad @ 1100 and 1145 speed. This combination isn't on their web site. I have a call in to their tech support, but if anyone has any published info I'd appreciate sharing it.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Andy44

    Andy44 Active Member

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    I believe anything less than 19.0gr will give erratic ignition with the 616 primer, but that should be close to what you're looking for.

    AndyH ;-)
     
  3. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Pressures could get pretty high using a Federal wad in a tapered hull. 1000 to 1500 psi. higher than a wad made for tapered hull. Wayne
     
  4. Mark V

    Mark V Member

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    Wayneo....The fact that the pressure would be higher is what I'm looking for, especially for the 1100 ft/s load. All the published 1100 ft/s loads in the Alliant manual (tapered wads) use approximately 17.5 to 18.5 with pressures in the 7500 to 8500 range. I'd rather not guess at it, but starting at 17.5gr would probably be OK. If this load is in someones old reloading manual, I'd appreciate the info.

    thanks
     
  5. John Thompson

    John Thompson TS Member

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    Why would you want a 12S3 wad? The Rem fig 8 & clones are almost too long for 1 1/8 & 19 gr. of Green Dot, the 12S3 would be tight with 1 oz of shot. I get great results with the Fig 8 & 19 gr.s, also change the bushing for 1 oz & use a rem clone 1 oz wad.
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    wayneo, when I read your post about the the change from a taper to a straight-wall wad leading to 1000 to 1500 psi higher pressure, I wondered how close that popular conversion was to what I'd get.

    My 9000H is set up for something close enough to try it. I don't have any Fiocci primers, but otherwise 18.3 grains of Green Dot, one-fired STS hulls, Federal 209a primers, and WAA12 and 12S3 wad should about match what we need.

    First, the taper-hull wad, the WAA12. Average speed for five shells is 1209 fps with an SD of 7. Average pressure is 9100 psi with an SD of 200.

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    The straight-wall-hull wad, the Federal 12S3, produced an average speed of 1199 fps with an SD of 8. Average pressure was 8700 psi with an SD of 200.

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    This test leads me to conclude that the commonsense prediction -tighter fit = higher pressure - is incorrect with these components. Though I'd be willing to settle for there being no difference, a T-test tells us that in this small experiment, the pressure with the straight-wall wad was significantly less than with the taper wad. That's statistically, of course, practically there's no difference.

    Neil
     
  7. Mark V

    Mark V Member

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    Mr. Winston,
    thank you for the very informative test results.
     
  8. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Neil. Does the above mean you have the ability to "pressure test"?
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Jack, with this caveat. Since the equipment has not been recently calibrated, I consider the pressures "relative" rather than absolute, though the results from both factory shells and reloads "look about right."

    This new setup, an Oehler 84, is so quick and easy (and accurate) I look for an excuse to fire it up. It combines an inductive chronograph with a pressure-testing system in a particularly smart way and you don't even have to write stuff down anymore. What used to take half an hour now takes 10 minutes and the results are better too. In some things, there really is progress!

    I have to thank Ron Baker for a lot of computer help in setting it up, but then he's been one of the beneficiaries, so it wasn't all charity.

    Neil
     
  10. Ajax

    Ajax Well-Known Member

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    Neil, since you're in the myth-buster mode and if you need an excuse to fire it up. Put the same loads in a straight wall case and see what we have. I'm just wondering if the blow-by and drop in pressure and velocity is as bad as we have been lead to believe?

    Ajax
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    That's an interesting idea, Ajax, but I'm not sure I have any of those hulls around. If I can find some, I'll do it. Thanks for the good suggestion.

    So this would be a good time to ask readers here if they have any predictions on what will happen.

    I think the speed will be down about 30 fps and the pressure down about 500 psi but that's a complete guess.

    If these were one-ounce loads, the taper-hull wad would be well down on performance, but with 1 1/8 oz both will be fine and about the same.

    What do the others predict?

    Neil
     
  12. IM390

    IM390 Member

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    According to Alliant you are mixing the wrong wad with the wrong primer. And you may have long term problems too. A 12S3 can only be used with a CCISC209 or CCIM209 primer at around 19 grains. If you prefer the FIO 616 primer then change the wad to a Figure 8 wad(the only recipe Alliant gives for FIO 616 and a Remington hull). And I might add there was an article last spring about Fio 616 primers that gave eradic ignition in cold winter conditions using slow burning powders, like Green Dot.
     
  13. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    No measureable difference, no blow by. HMB
     
  14. BRGII

    BRGII TS Member

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    IM390, are you serious? Surely you jest. LMAO BRGII
     
  15. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Well, this is interesting . . .

    Following Ajax' suggestion, I traded the STS hulls for Gold Medal, to see what would happen if I changed the previous experiment from taper to straight-wall hulls.

    Following the order in my earlier post, here's the taper-hull wad in a straight-wall hull:

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Speed had dropped from the earlier average of 1209 fps to an average of 1175, a drop of about 35 fps. But the surprise is the drop in pressure, from an average of 9100 psi to only 7100 psi, 2000 lower. Is this because of the mismatch between the narrow wad and wide hull? Are we seeing "blow-by" letting the pressure out?

    Here's the result with the "proper" wad for this hull, a 12S3.

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Here the average speed has dropped from 1199 to 1166, a speed drop about like the other wads. And average pressure dropped from 8700 to 7200 psi, 1500 psi. This is less than in the earlier case, but still surprisingly big.

    The difference in results based on wad-appropriateness is minor, not nearly as much as the difference caused by the change in hulls.

    I think this tells us that we can pretty-much forget the wad effects (when using these two) , but should remember that the hull chosen can make a substantial difference.

    Thanks for the suggestion, Ajax; this is an interesting result. It reiterates both messages from the first test, that

    1. guessing is risky - next to useless here - no matter how solid the "common sense" (tight-fit in one case, blow-by in the other) it's based on, and

    2. the way to know what's going to happen is to find out.

    Neil
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Up in case you missed it.
     
  17. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Neil,, thanks for sharing your informative test results guy!!

    Seems to me the straight walled hulls mostly require a good fire built behind the wad base for best applications. I'm just guessing on that assumption as I load a ratio of 8 to 1 or more with the tapered hulls compared to straight walled hulls. Hap
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Here are the above data in tabular form:

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    It's clear that the significant differences here are between hull-types, not wad types.

    Based on my experience testing Ron Baker's array of hulls and wads and shot-weights, I think that the taper-wad/straight hull combination (WAA12 in a Gold Medal), which was just fine here, would have had both pressure and consistency problems if the shot-charge had been one ounce instead of one-and-an-eighth.

    Neil
     
  19. IM390

    IM390 Member

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    Hey GRBII,
    I"m about as serious as the guy who walked in behind me last year with his Fox double in 5 pieces laying on the ground. He had some shells laying around and thought he would shoot them up. He couldn't remember how he loaded them or with what.
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Up because the tests show that you can't predict what's going to happen when you switch wads even though your arguments seem to make sense and I think this is important for reloaders to know.

    Neil
     
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