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FTF OR LOST TARGET????

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by old pipe, May 2, 2007.

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  1. old pipe

    old pipe TS Member

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    Shooting a release trigger and it goes off the same time you call for the bird,
    what would be the call?? Lost or FTF??? Not in our rule book.
    Thankyou, pineapple
     
  2. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    If a legal bird is in the air when the gun fires, the results of the shot (dead/lost) are recorded. If the shot is fired before the bird is in the air, it is not a failure to fire, it is just an errant shot into the air. If the shooter/squad/scorer are not able to determine which came first, the bird or the shot, generally the event is ruled in the shooters favor.

    Pat Ireland
     
  3. MX/MT

    MX/MT TS Member

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    Pat,

    Not to nit-pick but, as I understand it, it doesn't matter if it is a 'legal' target or not. If it is your turn to shoot, a target is in the air, and your gun fires, the result must be scored.

    True or false?
     
  4. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    MX/MT,

    Think "broken target".
     
  5. Pocatello

    Pocatello Active Member

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    J Brooks is right - if the target is broken or target debris appears with it, the call would be "No Target". If a whole target appears and the shot goes off, the shot is scored, whether the target is legal or not (i.e. a "flipper", out of bounds, thrown upside down, whatever).
     
  6. MX/MT

    MX/MT TS Member

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    JB,

    I'm aware that a broken target is "no target" and the shooter gets another shot whether he fires at the broken bird or not. My point is that it does not have to be a legal target - could be a hard right screamer 3 feet off of the ground - if your gun fires while it is in the air, the result must be scored. As I understand it.
     
  7. Gargoyle!

    Gargoyle! TS Member

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  8. MX/MT

    MX/MT TS Member

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    Yeah Jerry, I know, it sounds pretty straight forward.

    However, a whole bunch of us were very surprised a couple of years ago at our state shoot.

    A fellow is in a shoot-off - for HAA, no less, - and they're shooting doubles. Right there in front of God and everybody (including our Zone VP, State Delegate, State officers, and about 100 spectators), this guy mounts his gun and before he calls, the machine throws a pair. As he's lowering his gun, with the targets still in the air, it fires (he shoots a release)....."LOST PAIR"!...and second place.

    It took a while to explain, but apparently you don't have to call for the target(s), just fire while they're in the air. At least at that particular shoot, that was the call.
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    MX/MT- Unfortunately, the call made at the shoot you mentioned was correct.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. bcnu

    bcnu Active Member

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    Targets in the air and unbroken, shot and wad leave the barrel, lost.
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    WGH- In the situation you described, a case might be made for a FTF but never a lost target.

    The rule book does allow the squad leader to call for and look at one bird. The rules do not directly prevent the squad leader from looking at the target over his gun. It is an uncommon move and we look with suspicion at anything uncommon. I would not have a problem with a squad leader looking at the bird over his gun, but I would never do it. I do not believe this action would fall under the prohibition of a shooter tracking a bird called for by another shooter.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. Dale Z

    Dale Z TS Member

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    WGH
    It is the responsibility of the squad leader to call for 1 target for observation. I don't see where he cannot shoulder his gun for that viewing. Recently I have been scoring for high school events and shouldering of gun for the observation target is a common practice by all squad members. It seems like high school shooters are being taught some sort of ritual when it is their turn. I understand a shooter can take his/her time when its their turn, however when it takes them 30 seconds to do so, it interupts the rhythm of the squad.
     
  13. balance365

    balance365 TS Member

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    I like to shoot leadoff and perform a routine similar to what WGH describes. Everyone to the line, the fidgeting dies down, "Squad ready?" "Scorer ready?" mount my gun, "Can we see a bird please?" Track the target thrown by the scorer. Lower, load and go. When on the any other post at a start of a round, I will also track that observation target. Am I going to get an FTF? I may need to find a new routine. I know I get 2 FTF per sub event, but I would hate having one used before the first target. There are some good shooters I shoot at events with, including some All Americans. I know that at least one AA uses a spent hull on the observation target, and drops the hammer. How is that legally called? I have never seen anything called against any shooters on an observation target.
     
  14. KelleyPLK

    KelleyPLK TS Member

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    release triggers ! Some times go off prematurely into the grownd or or even into trap house , If a bird is called and is in air . shot is fired in direction of target (not in ground ) its lost other wise at Grand American
    shooter gets another bird once each 25 birds mistake ! shooter error 1 per 25 then its a loss .









    Pat Kelley
     
  15. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Regarding WGH's post: You guys are getting too serious. This is done quite often and it is not a problem. Someone that tried calling this a lost target needs to lighten up. It could not be considered a FtF because he never intended to shoot the target.
     
  16. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    Pat (Kelley)

    If a whole target is in the air, and one's gun subsequently fires, the result is scored. It doesn't matter whether the gun was fired because of a shooter's error with a release trigger or for some other reason. The direction of the discharge is also irrelevant. It matters not whether one fires in the direction of the target, into the back of the trap house, directly into the dirt or in some other (safe) direction. The target is either hit or missed and scored accordingly.

    Could you direct me and other readers to the rules where FTF is different at the Grand American as opposed to other ATA registered shoots. While you're at it, please direct us to the section that explains your observation,

    "... shooter gets another bird once each 25 birds mistake ! shooter error 1 per 25 then its a loss ." (op cit)

    Thanks.

    sissy
     
  17. Gargoyle!

    Gargoyle! TS Member

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    It is an unwriten rule that you call "shooters ready? Puller ready? My we see one"? That first target is nothing but a site target. I have seen all on a squad mount their guns and track the target. If the squad leader on the second target did not fire then its a FTF. The first target is always a freebe.
     
  18. old pipe

    old pipe TS Member

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    Thankyou for responding, now I have a better idea on my part when this happens to me. Is'nt FTF a involentary action? When calling for a target is a command,
    but the shell discharge was'nt intended at that time, who decides?
    pineapple.
     
  19. Gargoyle!

    Gargoyle! TS Member

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    Heres another question. When the shooters got to the field the scorer told the shooters that the machine was throwing from time to time a VERY wide right hand target and that you did not have to shoot at it. Now all the shooters were trying to shoot as well as they could but also had to watch for that wide right hand target. A shooter did have a right hand target but did not shoot thinking it was to wide but called for another target. After the round the score told the shooter that she could make a call for FTF. The shooter reminded the scorer of the machine throwing wide targets. Not only do we have to shoot at targets but to now have to watch the targets for being to wide. You the scorer put some fear in us shooter with those targets. She thought it over and said your right. Nothing was done but it could have been a problem. What are you alls thought on this.
     
  20. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Pineapple:

    Think about it, you can't have a Failure-to-Fire if your gun fires. It only applies when you involuntarily DO NOT fire.
     
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