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FTF in a shoot off

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by VNVET, Apr 8, 2010.

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  1. VNVET

    VNVET Member

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    I received my April issue of Trap & Field today and in the "House Rules" article, Dave Kaiser details the rules pertaining to FTF and the definition of what constitutes a "Sub Event". It's a good read but it brings up a question pertaining to "Shoot-offs".

    For the sake of discussion, lets say you're having a shoot-off and it will be 2x10. That is two targets on each post, total of 10 shots. Does each shooter get two FTF's for each 10, or does a shoot-off not count as an event. I don't recall ever seeing a FTF in a 2x10 shoot-off and just wondering how that would be handeled.

    Jim
     
  2. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    A shoot off would be an event, right?
     
  3. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    320090T.... No, a shoot-off is NOT an event. If it were an event, the targets would be counted as registered targets, and they are not..... Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  4. TEXASZEPHYR

    TEXASZEPHYR Member

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    Since most shoot offs are done with 25 shots then the next 25 etc until there is a winner, it would seem that each group of shots would be an event and allow 2 FTF's. Neil might can expand on this if he sees it before heading to SA for the SWG.
    \
    Bob
     
  5. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    Were I refereeing, I'd expect to permit 2 FTFs for every round of a shootoff. I have, in fact, done exactly that in 25 bird shootoff rounds. In the case of short shootoffs, say 2 per station, I'd bring the subject up and suggest that each shooter would have 1 FTF permitted......Bob Dodd
     
  6. melbournemike

    melbournemike TS Member

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    isnt it a moot point ? I havnt had a failure to fire in the past year!
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Singles and handicap shoot offs are 25 bird races and doubles shoot offs are 20 bird races. Shoot off targets are not registered but ATA rules apply so shooters would get two failure to fires for each sub event in the race. A shoot off for High All Around gets more complicated. In a High All Around shoot off, each shooter shoots 4 singles targets from each post, two handicap targets from each post and one pair of doubles from each post. Two failure to fires are allowed for the combined singles, handicap and doubles targets, at least when I am the referee.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    The Delegate who proposed the change from one to two failures-to-fire (the same, in fact, who had caused there to be failures-to-fire at all) included this provision on the motion. In fact, I believe Pat was there and voted for it.

    "During shoot-offs for All Around and High Over
    All events shooters will be allowed 1 Failure to Fire in each of the three
    (3) disciplines (Singles, Handicap, Doubles)."

    Which is in the rulebook now and could have been easily tracked down since it's in the first paragraph. Aside from orthographic inconsistency it's a good rule. John Hiter will fix the problem for the next printing.

    Pat was no doubt distracted by other thoughts on this historic day (today) and is the only one here, probably, who has the location correct, though everyone else thinks they do too.

    Neil
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Neil- Yes, I made an error. There is one F to F for each group in a High All Around shoot off. I did vote for that. I could blame my mistake on this anniversary of a historic day. Things changed on April 9, 1865. I find it strange that many believe Appomattox Court House is the name of a building and do not realize it is the name of a town. I accept the location of the site where Lee surrendered to Grant. I am aware of two other location in Georgia that make a similar claim.

    Thanks for correcting my mistake.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    Dan, a sub-event then, my bad.
     
  11. VNVET

    VNVET Member

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    So we are in agreement that during a 2x10 shoot off for singles or handicap there are two FTF allowed for each 2x10?

    Jim
     
  12. pheasantmaster

    pheasantmaster Well-Known Member

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    Neil, Pat was not the only other here. Do you not remember that when this change was proposed on the floor and I might have said something pertaining to alittle louder than I meant?

    Pat, Lee didn't volunteerily surrender. He was chemically induced by some damn yanks in his sleep!
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Jim- The management may elect to have 10 bird shoot offs in an ATA event but it is both unusual and discouraged by the rule book (page 15, Sec IV H 2). Because two F to F are allowed in 25 target shoot offs, or 20 bird shoot offs (doubles) I would think the management would allow two F to F for 10 bird shoot offs. This is not directly addressed in the rule book.

    Also, if the management decides that since 2 F to F are allowed for 25 targets, only 1 2/5 F to F should be allowed in a 10 bird shoot off. That could become a lot of fun to score.

    backwoods- I remember what you said, but I didn't fully remember what we passed.

    Pat Ireland
     
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