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Ft. Lbs vs stopping power?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by 100straight, Jul 11, 2007.

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  1. 100straight

    100straight Member

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    All other things being equal, I'll take the one that makes the biggest hole.

    Shoot well and often,

    Mark.
     
  2. ec90t

    ec90t Guest

    I will always take the slow, heavy bullet everytime. A fast bullet will ricochet and the slow one will penetrate. I only want the bullet to hit what I'm aiming at!

    ec90t
     
  3. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    None of the above.

    But the .38 Spl is factory loaded to 250+ Ft-lbs.

    Get a 357 Mag, 40 S&W or .45 if want to stopping power. Pip squeak loads and stopping power are not mutually attainable.

    Also, you will be amazed at the recovery speed of a Kahr, XD, Glock etc. Getting repeat shots on target is not a problem to worry about unless you are physically challenged. My 120 lb girlfriend handles a 9mm Kahr (16 oz) very well.

    Don
     
  4. Steve-CT

    Steve-CT TS Member

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    Ft lbs from handgun loads have NOTHING, repeat: NOTHING to do with "stopping power". Shot placement and penetration of vital organs for rapid hemmorhage and/or CNS disconnect has EVERYTHING to do with stopping power.

    With that said, of the three loads you mentioned, the .38 SPL would have the "best" stopping power of the three.

    It will make the same size hole as the .380 but will penetrate more than the .380 due to increased mass.

    The .22 would have the "least" but can still work if placed in the melon for a CNS shut down (assuming it doesn't glance off)

    On the street in real life, the .22s and .25s have a 20% chance of a one shot stop to the torso; the .32s and .380s about a 30-35% chance; the .38s and 9mm
    are 50%; .45 ACP ball is 65-66% and the old FBI load of .38 SPL 158 gra +P LSWC-HP is 64-65%.

    The .44 Mags are in the upper 80% range and the cartridge with the best "one shot stop" track record is the hot version of the Federal 125 grain .357 Mag
    JHP with a 96% track record. (the reason why the .44s are behind the .357 125s is because there is a far smaller statistical sample of data from, real world, actual street combat results with the .44 - no implication of the .44 being inferior)

    .45 ACP ball is the best of the "plain vanilla" non expanding, low velocity loads. (.44 SPL and .45 LC would obviously perform similarly or better)

    .357 Mag 125 grain "full power" at 96% comes with a tremendous trade off of deafening blast, very bright muzzle flash, high perceived recoil for some shooters and difficult shot to shot follow up recovery not to mention accelerated wear and tear, forcing cone erosion and flame cutting of the top strap on guns like S&W "K" frames, relegating their use to infrequent, thus not well predisposed to extensive practice with the round unless used in an impractical (by today's standards) gun such as an "N" frame M-27, or M-28 "Highway Patrolman"

    two, well centered rapidly placed hits with a .38 beats a clean miss with a .357 any day and so too, does two hits taking out one perp and having four more rounds to deal with a second perp instantly rather than stumbling through a dark alley, or - a dark living room filled with furniture and other obstacles - after being flash blinded and deafened by a .357.

    .380s are notoriously poor penetrators of simple barriers and heavy clothing and have been known to literally bounce off the first layer of kevlar.
    They are also notoriously inaccurate from many popular guns such as PPKs and Beretta 84s compared to .32 ACP counterparts

    .22s will only piss off an attacker unless you get face shots - damn fast. A gut shot with a .22 might bleed an attacker to death an hour later, but probably not until he's hacked you to pieces first.

    .38s are far from the best, but far from the worst - despite what you read in the bullshit gun rags. Often the best compromise. 9mm is equal to .38 SPL in real life performance and actually somewhat INFERIOR to the heavier .38s in SOFT tissue penetration and somewhat SUPERIOR to .38s in simple barrier, harder penetration.

    The .45 ACP, if you can handle it, is the best handgun available.

    The .40 is a joke. A gun that has 9mm performance and .45 ACP recoil.

    Remember: this is all fairly RELATIVE.

    ALL Handgun rounds commonly used for defense basically SUCK. None has enough "energy" to stop someone.

    If it did, it would also instantly "stop" the firer

    It's the body's reaction to the bullet hitting that matters and that is governed by above-SHOT PLACEMENT and what did the bullet destroy
     
  5. Steve-CT

    Steve-CT TS Member

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    Also, given a choice between .22 LR and .25 ACP - the .25 ACP is a better choice because in a quality made gun, they are less likely to malfunction being A. centerfire and B FMJ profile - smoother feeding.

    .22s are notorious for FTFs in small guns and have a nasty habit of the infamous - pull trigger and "click" no firing because you have a round with the primer inside the rim clumped on one side - only you're NOT on the range and the attacker is close enough that you won't have time to rack the slide and clear it never mind open the chamber to rotate the round 90-degrees for a second whack.

    If you do use a .22 LR for defense- get a Taurus 9-shot( Wheelgun). That way you have some double and triple tap face shots and still have some rounds for follow up or second perp threat. If you have a misfire - a pull of the trigger in DA mode simply rotates the next round up.
     
  6. Steve-CT

    Steve-CT TS Member

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    One last thing, capacity doesn't mean much unless you're attacked by a gang of five or six perps. And if you're good - the other three or four will scatter like cockroaches once the first one or two go down Gang bangers are tough and vicious ONLY on people they think are easy targets. They become cowards damn fast

    Having a 15-18 shot 9mm and noticing the first two torso shots have not worked - means the next round needs to split the melon case for a CNS shut down. Two in the torso and no slow down or stop means the next five, ten or fifteen might not work, either.

    Two in the chest and one in the head - if the perp isn't already flat on the ground should be a standard drill. Many of today's perps are drugged up and also often wearing body armor.
     
  7. jnoemanh

    jnoemanh TS Member

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    "If the bad guy recovers,sometime in the future he will go to your home at 3am,and burn it down with you and your family asleep.......Richard"

    Good point. Don't shoot someone unless you intend to kill him.
     
  8. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    If you can, yes, call 911 and leave the phone off the hook so there is a record of you screaming "get out, don't hurt me,POW! POW!" (YOUR NEXT CALL WAS 1911).

    HM
     
  9. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    "The .40 is a joke. A gun that has 9mm performance and .45 ACP recoil". stevel-ct must be joking.
     
  10. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Terminal energy has little to do with terminal performance. There may be a correlation that implies the most effective cartridges have higher energy figures, but it does not mean that a cartridge will perform better than another based solely on energy alone. A good cartridge with poor bullet construction may be less effective than a lesser round with excellent bullet construction.

    I seem to have more confidence in something that will make a big hole. The .45 is a great choice in that regard. I also like the tried and true 125 gr JHP .357 Mag or even the .357 Sig in a similar loading, just for the fact that it is a proven stopper and the recoil is not unmanagable for me. The .40 might be fine in some loadings, but I'm not a great fan of it either. The lighter bullet CorBon type loads (135-155gr) seem to hold some promise in the .40. I'd still much rather have a .45 something in my hand for serious social work if limited to a handgun. I will use whatever I have if the need arises, but I hope it is something other than a compromise for concealability.
     
  11. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    stevel-ct, quote: "....Two in the chest and one in the head - if the perp isn't already flat on the ground should be a standard drill...."<br>
    <br>
    In fact, this is called the "Mozambique Drill":<br>
    <br>
    The Mozambique Drill was added to the modern technique of gunfighting by Jeff Cooper based on the experience of one of his students, Mike Rousseau, while on duty in Mozambique. Rousseau was later killed in action in the Rhodesian War.<br>
    <br>
    The Mozambique Drill considers the deficiency of the pistol round in stopping an adversary. Statistics show that reactions in gunfights are extremely irregular -- one must be prepared for the worst. Many times it is the case that after absorbing the trauma of the first shots, the enemy will disregard further ballistic insult. It has been pointed out that simply "more shots" are not the answer. The Mozambique Drill instructs the shooter to place a double-tap in the center of mass, followed by a carefully aimed headshot.<br>
    <br>
    Contrary to popular belief, the immediate aim of defensive shooting is to incapacitate a target so as to render that person unable to attack. Unlike what is commonly seen on television and in movies, gunshot wounds rarely kill instantly. The incapacitation caused by gunshots is the result of neurocirculatory shock. The trauma resulting from impact and wound channel after two shots to a target's center of mass will produce a reflexive nervous system collapse in about 96% of cases. In the other 4%, either an adrenaline rush or the effect of stimulant drugs will override this reflex, and further shots will not produce this instantly-incapacitating shock.[citation needed] Because of this, the third shot should be aimed to destroy the brain, ensuring that the target's nervous system will shut down and leave the target unable to attack. This third shot is most effective when placed between a target's eyes as a higher shot is more likely to deflect off of hard bone and a lower shot is unlikely to produce the nervous system damage required to instantly stop an attacker.<br>
    <br>
    Also known as the 'failure drill' or '2+1 drill'. As part of the U.S. National Guard Combat Pistol and other military combat pistol competitions, the Mozambique Drill is called Body Armor Defeat, and is frequently a discriminator between the average shooter and the gifted shooter, especially when it is timed.
     
  12. Steve-CT

    Steve-CT TS Member

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    Jerry P - I have two .40s I am selling now. I stand by my comment. .40 is a JOKE.

    Why the hell would anyone want a gun that kicks like a .45 and does a lesser job? The performance gain over 9mm is marginal at best and academic. It's just cramming a bigger slug into a frame designed to hold 9mm

    I've shot the .40s from SIG, Glock, Beretta, etc. They are not as accurate as either the 9mm or the .45, they are loud, flash more using a small magnum primer

    If I can control my .45 as well as a .40, give me one good reason why I should
    have a bullet with 50 to 100 grains LESS mass and a smaller hole than a .45? And please don't tell me it's because I can have eleven or twelve rounds instead the eight .45s in my Wilson 47-D mags.

    I drank the Kool Aid once on the .40 when a cop friend told me I should get one. It sucks. I'd take it over a small gun or no gun, But I would take EITHER a 9mm or .45 over a .40 any day
     
  13. mrrem3200

    mrrem3200 Member

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    Very interesting stuff gentlemen, thanks you, you obviously know what you’re talking about. I have contemplated buying a .40 for some time; you may have changed my mind. I don’t often carry but when I do I use a Sig P-228 9mm with a mixture of Black Talons and Star fire rounds more frequently a Smith 642 .38 hammerless with +P’s.
     
  14. Steve-CT

    Steve-CT TS Member

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    rem3200 - you're already there. Just practice and be able to put the rounds where it counts, fast. The whole world carries 9mm, so it's not THAT bad

    The .40 was a marketing gimmick of the ammo companies responding to a late 1980s FBI test that spun the opinion that the 10mm Full Power round was the "best" penetrator, but had to water it down to "10mm Lite" because many
    agent trainees could not handle full power 10mm - which was on par with full house .41 Magnums. Many people have already forgotten that for a brief time, the general issue FBI pistol was.........the S&W model 1076 in 10mm and that H&K made a version of their MP-5 in 10mm for the FBI.

    That whole deal was spawned by the 1986 "Miami Massacre" which was embarrassing to the FBI because they had two agents killed (Dove & Grogan) and two wounded going up against two well armed perps who were holding up armored cars. In that fracas, Dove and Grogan were each armed with S&W 459s 14-shot 9mms with first generation W-W silvertips - the ones with the really soft, aluminum jackets and soft, pure lead cores that expand well at low impact velocities - so does dog poop if thrown against a brick wall - Grogan was the Agent-In-Charge and made what should have been - a fatal shot with his 459, except that the bullet first penetrated the perp's forearm, then his sternum and reached but DID NOT penetrate the heart-thus resulting in a failure to stop.

    I submit, that same shot made with a 1911 with hardball or even a 9mm with NATO spec'd FMJ would have penetrated. (Fackler's test shows that proper density ballistic gelatin - 9mm and .40 rapid expanders penetrate 12" - .45 ball penetrates THIRTY INCHES - two blocks laid out end to end and compresses the block so that it actually lifts slightly from the table during impact and leaves a permanent channel the same as the rapid expanding lesser calibers)

    The fracas in Miami ended with the last wounded agent taking out the perp with a head shot from a .38 revolver. (actually a .357 M-13 3" round butt - FBI standard at the time) loaded with 158 gr +P LSWC-HP - the most effective .38 round on record.

    So, the FBI being embarrassed by this tragedy, spun the 10, watered it down, jammed the 10-lite ballistics into existing 9mm frame guns that small statured
    agent's hands could wrap around - and voila - the Kool Aid was poured for all to drink. and that's how the .40 was born. The third most useless handgun in the world, next to the .500 S&W and the FN Five-SevN.

    I have both a P-228 in 9mm and a P-229 in .40

    My P-229 .40 is for sale. My P-228 in 9mm, isn't.

    I can double tap much faster and more accurately with the 228 than the 229

    In fact, I handle my 1911s in .45 better than the .40 because the .40s are all lighter, smaller guns - like I said above - basically 9mm chassis with oversized bullets stuffed into them and through their bores

    My IDPA scores and times are better with either a full size 1911 in .45 OR a 9mm sized gun shooting.........9mms, not .40s

    There it is - take it or leave it
     
  15. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    stevel-ct, your statement that the .40 S&W has 9mm performance is simply not true. A 180 gr bullet at 1000 fps is not 9mm performance, nor a 165 gr at over 1100 fps. As for Quack Shot's comment about bullet configuration, that's not a relevant issue anymore. Good bullets are available for all calibers these days.
    As for your statement about an oversized bullet stuffed into 9mm chassis. That is called better efficiency. More power in the same package.

    I would never say you should use a 40 instead of a 45. But the 45 is a big heavy gun. The 45 auto is absolutely the best target gun but not something pleasant to carry around. The 40 is a potent cartridge in a lighter package regardless of your personal bias.
     
  16. mallardfilmore

    mallardfilmore TS Member

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    You are sadly mistaken that someone will not shake off a .44 hit. We have an officer near my dept. that was shot at least 2x with a 44, one of them to the chest and lived in addition to shooting and ending the bad guy. No vest on either. About 2 years ago we had an officer shot in the mouth with a 38 at about 3 feet, he returned fire and managed to hit his guy 3 times. Just because you shoot someone, doesn't mean anything other than you've had your turn.
    This two to the chest one to the head sounds great but it's mostly crap. The average trained officer only has about a 15-20% hit ratio when you count the whole body. Trying to hit the head on a moving target has great potential but you gotta hit the right spot first.
    If you really want to know how hard this is, have someone stand about 15 feet from you. Point your FINGER at their head. ( I can't belive that I have to put this in here but people are stupid so DON'T USE A FIREARM OF ANY KIND FOR THIS DRILL) Have them keep their feet in one place but bend at the waist as though they are dodging something being thrown at them. If you are honest with yourself, you'll figure out right quick it'll be pretty tought hit anything. No, the noise and flash from the gun being fired will not have any effect on them. What makes you think they will hear or see it?
    Now, do the same drill but this time point your FINGER at a point just below where the belt buckle would be (or is). A much bigger target that doesn't move nearly as fast or as well. Hitting the pelvic girdle has multiple targets. The large arteries are down there and can provide a quick hydraulic stop. If the shot happens to damage or break the pelvis, it'll be pretty hard to move when the legs don't work. No, it's not a brain shot but it has a much higher probablity of being hit than the head shot.
    Many people get hit in the head during shootings and a lot of them don't die, they are just uglier from the damage.
    I'm with you on the probability of a head shot providing a quicker end to the fight but reality is under the kind of stress you'll be under, it's doubtful you'll have the hit you really expect. We still teach the head shot but we also include the pelvic shot too because we expect they wont hit the smaller target since with Simunitions training, they often miss a whole person at less than 10 feet.
    As far as a .22 goes, not it's not the best defense gun in the world but if you have someone who isn't interested that much in shooting but will commit to some practice, then it's better than nothing. Most non-shooters have no interest in the recoil or difficulty that may come from running the large bore guns. However, a lot of them will warm up to a .22 and actually spend time shooting it. I still say that if this is the case, then a .22 semi auto and 5 loaded mags in the bedroom are pretty effective if that person likes to shoot the gun and has really practiced with it. Better than a snubby .38 that they hate or won't or don't want to shoot.
    Most people can't understand the simple principle when buying a gun for a smaller statured person. The smaller the gun and the shorter the barrel, the higher the skill level needed to shoot it well. I've seen this proven out time and time again when the dept. sends the person to the range with the "compact" gun because they are smaller. Everytime, we've had to request the large frame gun be brought out and magically they can at least have a decent chance of passing with it where with the smaller gun, they were just not going to make it.
    Not against the small guns, when issued to the person with the proper amount of skill.
     
  17. Steve-CT

    Steve-CT TS Member

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    JerryP I can appreciate your point of view, but I still don't buy it.

    I don't see cramming a .40 cartridge into a 9mm platform as "efficient" I see it more as "law of diminishing returns" In a 9mm sized gun, I'd rather have the controllability of 9mm rounds. In a .45 1911 sized gun, I shoot that best of all and hence see no need for the .40. I'm not saying the .40 doesn't work -
    I'm saying I can shoot either the .45 or the 9mm better than the .40

    With regard to stated velocities - 180 gr @ 1,000 fps is nominal. From most service and pocket sized carry guns it's more like 900 or upper 800s and the 165s add - 100 fps or so. Either way, handgun velocities suck. These rounds don't perform on the street the way the gun mags and ammo makers show the wide open expansion in their rigged and controlled tests. Most hollow points unless hitting flat hard surfaces,straight on without carving through anything soft first, plug up with clothing on their way into the target and act just like a solid bullet.

    Real shooting studies confirm, the best .40s are no better than the best 9mms

    Again, I'd rather have my .45, 230 grain FMJs @ 780-820fps. Low flash, very controllable from a steel 1911,
    and lots of mass and intertia behind that .45 hole.

    The .45 ACP will be 90% as effective at 650 fps as it is
    at 800.

    To chatbrat: practice head shots with your .22 airweight. face and neck shots are the only thing that will work reliably from a .22.

    Also, Chatbrat, you might want to check the Shotgun News from about a year ago - they tested the FN 5SevN aginst the Tokarev 7.62X25 from a CZ-52 and a 1911 .45 shooting hardball in penetration tests. The CZ has the most and the .45 had about the SAME penetration as the FN.

    All you have with that gun is big, high cap .22 mag.

    I often carry a N. American mini .22 5-shot as a last ditch back up, or third gun, or as a deep concealment gun where I can legally carry but don't want to conceal my airweight .38 or my Khar MK-9 for low threat threshold neighborhoods - and only practice close point firing at 2 feet with it into coffee saucer sized targets. Traveling into any of the dangerous parts of the city, to visit family on the other side of the forest - I carry the .45 and the mini or the .45 the airweight and the mini
     
  18. mallardfilmore

    mallardfilmore TS Member

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    The vest provider we use came by for a demo day and set up his real cool vest demo device. Basically a dummy torso with clay in a box that he wrapped the vest around. Imagine his surprise when our issued Win. 9mm 124 gr. SXT's managed to penetrate his level 2A and level 2A+ vests, which we use.
    His embarrased response to me was that we needed to change ammo. My reply was the ammo seemed to be working quite well and a new vest supplier would be more in order.
    In our shootings around here, the .40 is a consistant non-performer. They've poked a lot of holes in people and only had one expire and that was from a shot made at like 8" while he was trying to grab the officer's gun. The bullet did penetrate the chest and clip the heart but the bullet did not exit the body as everyone would have expected the mighty .40 to do.
    The .40 is a disappointment and the FN 5.7 falls in the joke category. Wouldn't want to get shot with it but I wouldn't want to take it to a real gun fight either.
     
  19. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    Big Bore, I won't dispute anything you have said. But I'm not saying the 40 is better than any bigger caliber. I'm not comparing the 40 to the 45. I only spoke up when steve-ct asserted that the 40 had 9mm performance. That is all I'm arguing. I still say the 40 is superior to the 9mm and apparently the many police departments across the country that have switched to the 40 from the 9 would agree. Also some segments of the military are trying to get away from the 9mm and back to the 45, some never switched. I agree with your comments on the .44 Special, I think it is maybe the best all round caliber made. Big, powerful and pleasant to shoot.

    steve-ct, it appears your bias stems from the fact that you can't shoot your 40's as well as your other guns. I won't argue that either.

    clay crusher, that's the real world, they'll all kill horribly. Wouldn't want your job. I disagree with one point though, I would want a big hole all the way through both sides. As Elmer Keith said, "It lets the blood out and the cold air in."

    mallard, I'll bet the .45 failed to penetrate the vest also. Does that make the 45 round less effective than the 9mm?
     
  20. Steve-CT

    Steve-CT TS Member

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    .45 doesn't do well on vests and sledge hammers don't do well penetrating winter coats, either. A hit by .45 while wearing a soft vest will result in being knocked onto one's ass with possible broken ribs and very possibly a pericardial tamponade.

    .22 Mag penetrates kevlar very well relative to other common handgun rounds and so can hat pins; that won't make either one my first choice for defense.

    .40 is roughly equal to 9mm in real life gun battle effects, now that 70% of police departments have been duped into switching to it since the mid 1990s and there is now ten or more years of solid gun battle data for it. A lot of local depts. in CT are now upgrading to .45 because of the .40s failures!
    (West Haven, CT, Ansonia, CT; and Hartford, CT just to name a few)
    (West Haven gets the "spill over" crime from the "Hill" in New Haven, Ansonia has become the new "Bridgeport" inheriting all the former "Father Panick" village inhabitants
    and Hartford police engage in regular gun battles with asshats from "Frog Hollow"

    Interesting to me, how the towns with the real problems and high likelihood of officer-suspect gun combat are going to .45. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

    JerryP I respectfully disagree with your viewpoint and stand by my earlier commoent:

    .40 gives 9mm performance with more recoil, less effective shot to shot recovery than 9mm, more blast and muzzle flash due to the combination of powders and .357 Mag primer used, fewer shots in the mag than a 9mm version of the same gun.

    It's not the worst cartridge in the world and yes, I would choose a .40 over a
    small caliber handgun or no handgun, but I would pass on it if offered the SAME gun in 9mm, or upgrade to a 1911 in .45


    The whole subject is RELATIVE. ALL handguns, even my "beloved" .45 - SUCK

    I'd rather have a 12 guage shotgun with buck or slugs or a .308 M-1A rifle

    HOWEVER,

    The question becomes, on the street, being limited to carrying a handgun, do I want:

    A. A small lightweight bullet, with negligible recoil at a velocity that sucks?
    (.22; .25; .32 and arguably .380)with 20% to 30% one shot stop records?

    B. A midweight, mid diameter bullet that is controllable at a velocity that sucks? (.38 & .9mm )with a 50-64% one shot stop record?

    C. A midweight, mid diameter bullet that is not controllable, will blind me and deafen me after one shot and from a typical carry gun's barrel length still has a velocity that sucks, although from a longer, test barrel or range/house gun barrel has a somewhat less sucky velocity - (.357 Mag)and a 96% one shot stop track record?

    D. A mid-heavier bullet whose diameter is 5/1000ths of an inch bigger than
    B or C above, with less controllabilty than B, similar flash to C, whose velocity STILL sucks, (.40)50-75% track record of one shot stops?

    E. A heavyweight bullet whose diameter is 5/1000ths of an inch bigger than D;
    10,000ths bigger than B or C, with 30% more MASS than D and up to 100% more mass than B or C, that is CONTROLLABLE at a velocity that sucks? (.45 ACP & LC
    & .44 SPL) with a 67-85% track record of one shot stops

    F. A heavyweight bullet like E above that is uncontrollable, in a gun too large to carry practically, that will flash blind and deafen me like C above - but at a somewhat less sucky velocity? (.44 Mag and arguably .41 Mag full power and 10mm full power)and anything larger with 80% one shot stop records?

    Those six categories, A through F are basically what we all have to choose from for, legal concealed carry on the street. My choice is E.
     
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