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Fox Eye Candy As Promised in 5e thread

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by BILL GRILL, Feb 27, 2008.

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  1. BILL GRILL

    BILL GRILL Well-Known Member

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    Well here are a few pictures. The gun is a Fox SBT L grade of which there were 25 made the last in 1934. Enjoy, Bill
    <a href="http://s126.photobucket.com/albums/p81/billgrill/?action=view&current=DSC00019.jpg" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>
    <a href="http://s126.photobucket.com/albums/p81/billgrill/?action=view&current=DSC00018.jpg" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>
    <a href="http://s126.photobucket.com/albums/p81/billgrill/?action=view&current=DSC00017.jpg" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>
    <a href="http://s126.photobucket.com/albums/p81/billgrill/?action=view&current=DSC00015.jpg" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>
     
  2. gordy h

    gordy h Member

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    Way to go Bill, WOW! you sure know how to hurt a guy. Butch H
     
  3. leadspreader

    leadspreader TS Member

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    I was just admiring one of these at barnett's fine "eye candy" guns lol!! very nice old gun wish I had one in my gun cabinet..
     
  4. theodorescolt45

    theodorescolt45 TS Member

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    The metal looks very nice on this fine old trap gun, but the wood has been ruined so the collector value is basically zilch ... Nice shooter, which has a value of whatever a shooter will pay ... do you see many at the Grand being shot ?
    Anyway, not to burst your bubble, but I had a parker sbt and two early ithacas 4e and 5e ... I bought them all from a fellow shooter/collector when he stopped shooting and sold off all his stuff ... i bought his reloading setup and components too. This was in 1988. At the time I paid about 50% of book value ( blue book based on 90% condition ) which was the overall condition of the metal and wood finish ... note finish ... tow of them ( the parker and the 5e ) had the stocks cut, comb shaved, spacers added to re-lengthen etc ... I still paid too much ... when I sold them in 2003 I was not even able to recoup what I paid for them in 1988. The 4e I quadruped my investment on ... still took 15 years so overall I guess I broke even. I guess I should have kept the 4e as original guns
    only tend to appreciate value if in top condition.

    What does this mean ? well for my hard earned money I do not buy or collect
    guns that are not in original, unaltered condition. yes I shoot old(er) guns
    Remington 32TC and a parker VHE ( among others ). Both are well made, in excellent shape and 100% original ( wood uncut, unaltered but new pad added on the 32 ... vhe has original buttplate ). it seems with modern day trap/skeet guns 90% of the one's I see have adjustable combs, recoil reducing stocks, porting etc ... that initially enhances the value for a fellow shooter ...
    I wonder 20 years down the road when/if these guns are more valuable as a collectors item than a "shooter" what will happen to their value ?

    Yes, I'm a relative old timer and do not really care for "gimics" I see on
    the modern guns... release triggers are another pet peeve ... so for me
    I like to Keep It Stock Stupid ( KISS ) just like with classic cars ...

    ok, before everyone bashes me, it's my opinion, and when it comes to resale value of older firearms when they are modified the value is decreased drastically ... most collectors will not even make an offer on an "altered gun"

    yes, you can spend $1500 and put original sytle wood back on it, but it's still NOT the original wood !

    Anyway, it's still a nice old time trap gun, just not really a collectible
    that will appreciate ... so go ahead and shoot it and have a blast, no reason to leave it in the gun rack / safe collecting dust !

    just my 2 cents, not to bash the poster, just as information on a lesson I learned the hard way about potential value of older shotguns ....

    On another note, what is really interesting is if you see older target guns ( pre WWII era ) in 95% + original condition, all the price guides in the world do not help as at the last few auctions I watched they sold for 3 or 4 times what the book value and pre-auction estimates were ! ( another reason to look for
    original guns ... many were modified, especially the target grades, much easier to find field models in original condition then trap/skeet grades.

    best of luck and have a great day !
     
  5. chrismhsc

    chrismhsc Member

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    Bill Thanks for the fine photos. I recommend for you to post this at the Fox Collectors Website www.foxcollectors.com. I have been collecting quality doubles for many years and can tell you that Fox single barrel trap guns are quite rare and as long as the gun has not had the metal or wood refinished your gun will bring a healthy price exposed to the right people. Trapshooters began messing with guns long before this one and stock cutting and extensions are unfortunately common and will hurt the value but not a great deal compared to the balance of the gun. Don't be swayed by my comments or certainly others "two cents" as that is exactly what they are worth. Your gun is certainly a collectable and you should be very proud of it. You probably have Michael McIncosh's book on Fox shotguns and it has a chapter on single barrel trap guns. Again thanks for the post Chris
     
  6. theodorescolt45

    theodorescolt45 TS Member

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    duh ... ? that's why in original condition they are so much more valuable !!!
    it's still a nice gun, just worth about 25% of it would be if unaltered.
    Still rare, but the collectors who pay the 'big bucks' will shy away, at any
    price ...

    Not that I know what I'm talking about as I only worked in a gun shop for 45 years
    and saw all sorts of fine and not so fine weapons change hands ... I too thought
    it did not effect value too much when the stock was cut, comb shaved, pice of wood glued onto it, Morgan pad added to the short stock ... thats why the bulk of
    those atrocities sat in the gun racks for years until some poor sap came along ant bought them as they were 50% off of book value ! just try and resell it. yes there is a market for other shooters. best way, take it to a shoot, run a hundred straight sell to the highest bidder.

    Nice gun, take it out and shoot it

    gotta go, have to go cut stocks, install recoil pads, release triggers, soft top combs and do some porting on a few AH Fox's, Purdeys, Parkers and Smiths

    -oo
     
  7. BILL GRILL

    BILL GRILL Well-Known Member

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    Dear Teddy,
    What makes you think the gun was altered? The added spacers? Since you consider yourself an expert on the value of guns, tell me what it's
    worth and where I can buy one for that price. But before you make a total IDIOT out of yourself go to double gun.com and take a look at prices. It ain't
    the 80's no more.
    Also with only 25 of these guns made ever there are plenty of collectors who would love to have one.
    On another note a Ithaca Sousa grade sbt and a Fox M grade sbt fetched over 30,000 dollars apiece at James D. Julia auction last fall.
    The gun is not for sale, and I shoot all my guns they do not sit in a rack or safe. I buy them to shoot them. Regards,
    Bill
     
  8. jlb

    jlb Member

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    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    With respect to the refinishing of metal and refinishing or replacing the wood on old high quality guns I think that in time we will adopt a view that an appropriately restored high quality gun will have much greater value than their perceived value today. The English seem to have a much higher opinion of restored high quality guns than we do in the USA. My view is that a restoration that is “identical” to the quality of finish on the gun when new adds value, although unlikely as much as the restoration expense. Poor restorations are of course another situation.

    jlb
     
  9. otnot

    otnot Active Member

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    Bill that is a really nice old Fox. What is the LOP without all the spacers? One day we will have to put together a shoot that the only guns allowed are old SBT's. Hell I would fly down from Alaska for that.
     
  10. theodorescolt45

    theodorescolt45 TS Member

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    Billy -
    any moron who would pay $30K for that fox please send them to me, I have a bridge for sale !

    I'm glad you shoot it, with the shaved comb, stock cut, spacers added I would too.
    It would make a great 'rain gun'. I'll give you $500.00 right now if you
    include 10 flats of federal papers !

    I guess I'm just picky ... don't like altered guns as collectibles, fine
    as shooters. wait 30years and I'm sure it will be worth as much as you
    can get for it now, which is not much !

    just my 2 cents ... I could care less if they made 5, it's still not original
    or in original 'like' condition.

    Sorry I've never seen a book on classic firearms that shoes examples of one's
    where the comb was altered and/or stock cut.

    anyway, nuf said, keep it, shoot it, enjoy it as thats what it's meant for

    "An Items value is whatever someone is willing to pay for it"

    I really love this site Billy Bob, do you hang the fox on the gunrack
    in the back window of your F150 ?

    -oo
     
  11. BILL GRILL

    BILL GRILL Well-Known Member

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    Ted, Please reread the posts above. I do not believe anybody said somebody paid 30,000 for that fox. Also the comb has not been touched. Best Wishes Billy Bob
    P.S. Sorry but everybody knows I do not drive a F150
     
  12. BILL GRILL

    BILL GRILL Well-Known Member

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    Jerry,
    Thanks for the email. Regards, Bill
     
  13. BILL GRILL

    BILL GRILL Well-Known Member

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    Jim, Length of pull w/o spacers is 13 1/2 w spacers is 14.25, I think they should have that shoot in Alaska and we could all come there. Bill
     
  14. KenC

    KenC Member

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    When the title said "Fox Eye Candy..." I thought you were talking about Laurie Dhue!
     
  15. sako2115

    sako2115 TS Member

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    Well hearing about the need to keep fine old mechanical antiques original, I guess those with Boyd Coddington built steel hot rods or a special car by Chip Fosse really have a car with little or no value.

    Actually, I think it's a bit of a shame that we can't also appreciate guns that feature period correct modifications...like a M-12 with an aftermarket stock that has an adjustable comb, a Simmons Rib, and Timney trigger etc...these changes are period correct IMO. Now an M-12 with a high and adjustable rib and a PFS stock would likely be a fine gun, but not period correct, but in any case, stock, modified to work for me, or in between, I think any gun that features a stock condtion or good workmanship done in the aftermarket has value. At least to me...
     
  16. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    What a work of art, thanks for sharing the photos Bill.

    Mike
     
  17. birdogs

    birdogs TS Member

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    When the gun was originall built, someone at the Fox factory selected a piece of wood for the stock. He could just as well have selected a different piece of wood. So now, many years later, someone else makes that alternate selection and makes a stock for the gun, exactly like the original stockmaker at the factory. No one can tell the difference. Then why would the gun with the absolutly identical stock be worth less than the gun with the original stock?

    I guess what I am askinmg is why would a fine restoration be worth less that the original - especially if you couldn't tell the difference without being told? After all, Del Grego Parkers don't seem to suffer from this "devaluation"
     
  18. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

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    theodorescolt45, I would think after 40 years of working with guns you would have learned more then just the basics that an unaltered gun has more value. I can assure you that this gun would bring a handsome sum if and when Bill decides he wants to part with it. There are a whole lot more people today with a whole lot more money and only so many of certain things... Regardless of condition. I have seen guns at auction bring 3x what they should when they were no where near correct but they were rare. Jeff
     
  19. BILL GRILL

    BILL GRILL Well-Known Member

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    Well we had a good laugh at the club today, I did get a little ribing about Teddy's rant. Fun had by all. Thanks guys, Bill
     
  20. reb87

    reb87 TS Member

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    Here is my Fox. Comb cut and spliced on a non original restock(forend and stock) Barrel cut .5" rib posts resoldered. Its pretty hard to find trap guns that havent been modified though this one has been heavily modified, I was still happy to find and purchase it.
     
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