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Founding Fathers quotes for those needing....

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Brian in Oregon, Mar 18, 2008.

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  1. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Link is for a LOT of quotes from the Founding Fathers about individual firearms ownership. Might be useful for those of you who might get into a discussion about what the Founding Fathers really intended with the Second Amendment.
     
  2. birdogs

    birdogs TS Member

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    To many Liberals, the Founding Fathers are irrelevant - juat a bunch of old white guys, many of whom owned slaves.
     
  3. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    The facts of what the founders "intended" for the second amendment, died with the last of them and we have nothing but supposition and inference today to base our guesses about what they were really thinking. The document they assembled was based purely on their experiences and on their hopes for the future.

    I'd like to see what a couple dozen of today's wealth businessmen and members of the landed gentry would come up with if they were given the task of concocting a set of rules that would direct their lives today AND the lives of their descendants 200 years from today. Like their predecessors, these guys will have absolutely NO WAY of imagining what the state of society will be 2 centuries from now. Anything they would write or say would be relevant for the reality of their present but would be nothing but hopes and dreams for the future.

    Morgan
     
  4. happy

    happy Member

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    You are seeing what would happen. It's called Clinton,Kennedy And Polosi. Three communist murders and idiots. How anyone can think disarming honest citizen will help lower the crime rate has 0 common sense. Oh wait it did work once ask the Jews about Hitler.
     
  5. grunt

    grunt TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    I like that Rich old guys that owned slaves. But they had a vision and balls to stand up to the king.
     
  6. antique

    antique TS Member

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    Brian you will thank Bush for the two Judges he put on the supreme court.Jim
     
  7. pendennis

    pendennis Well-Known Member

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    A lot of the founding fathers did not own slaves, and it was one of the problematic issues facing them when they wrote the Constitution. Founders from the New England states, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania, among others. In fact, future bans of the importation of slaves was addressed in Article 1, Section 9.

    I disagree with Captain Morgan, in that the Founding Fathers indeed wrote a document for the ages. Their clear intent was to limit the power of the Federal Government.

    Today, after passage of the amendments from Thirteen onward, power has become more engrained within the central government, clearly not what was intentioned.

    As a matter of history, the Second Amendment was argued in the nineteenth century as security for states seeking to keep their militias from being called up by the Federal Government. Their fear was of potential slave uprisings, and the inability to protect the states' populace should that happen.

    Best,
    Dennis
     
  8. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    " A lot of the founding fathers did not own slaves, and it was one of the problematic issues facing them when they wrote the Constitution."

    They didn't struggle very hard with this problem; being mostly lawyers, businessmen and wealthy, they simply side-stepped the issue and chose to avoid the use of the words "slave" or "slavery" anywhere in the Constitution, referring to slaves as "others" or "others held in service".

    "I disagree with Captain Morgan, in that the Founding Fathers indeed wrote a document for the ages. Their clear intent was to limit the power of the Federal Government."

    Well, of course their intent was to limit the power of a central government. As individuals and as a group, it was in each of their best interests to keep a federal bureaucracy from exerting any meaningful control over their sources of wealth and power. They were assigned the task of drafting a "table of organization" for a new government and they used to opportunity to assure that any new form of government would be "friendly" to the lifestyles that had put them in the positions each found himself at the time.

    Attributing grand and noble philosophical and moral intentions to this group is a part of the myth conservative politicians have built around the individuals who framed the Constitution. Take a few minutes to discover the side of some of these men that never made it into high school history books : http://www.prisoners.com/mythff.html

    Morgan
     
  9. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like we got a Tory in our midst.
     
  10. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    Not denigrating the framers of the Constitution nor intending to...I'm simply reporting what many others before me have said and written: that those who wrote the documents that established the American government where not all the noble philosophers and idealists that they have been portrayed as in history books and that there was a good bit of "looking out for #1" that went on during the process. As founded, the American government was not a democracy; it was a patriarchal republic in which all the power rested only with those who were entitled to vote.

    As for "government by the people", that concept originated in cultures far older than our own, but in the Constitution as written, half "the people" (women, slaves) were not considered important or worthy enough and were unable to participate in the process of government at all. The word "people" referred only to men, and the power resided only with those among them that held office and/or owned land. Only men could vote and slaves were simply considered as another stick of furniture.

    The Constitution, as written, did not specify any rights for the individual at all. The idea of including such "details" was proposed as the Constitution was being drafted but the idea was unanimously rejected by those involved. Many States, noting the omission, simply developed their own, which varied widely from one State to another as they freely interpreted "government" to suit their needs. It was only through eventual rebellion against and rejection of the motives and intentions of those who wrote the Constitution that the Bill of Rights was created and that women were eventually given the right to vote and slavery was abolished.

    Hardly what could be considered a "document for the ages".

    Morgan
     
  11. pendennis

    pendennis Well-Known Member

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    I disagree, Capt. Morgan. Though many of the Founders were lawyers, the basis for our Constitution was found in English common law. It was, therefore, taken for granted that certain rights were inherent. The right to private property, self-defense, etc., are all inherent in freedom of the individual, and not found in the Constitution's text.

    As mentioned many times, the U.S. Constitution enumerates the power of the Congress, Executive, and Judicial branches of the Federal Government. All other powers remained with individuals and the states. That there were wide and varied interpretations of rights should come as no surprise to anyone. "God's law" was not written in stone.

    The Bill of Rights arose from original between the two primary factions when the Constitution was originally drafted. George Mason and James Madison, among others, knew that subsequent interpretations of the Constitution may very well corrupt its original intent. They, therefore, drafted the twelve amendments.

    Hamilton, in opposing the amendments feared, and rightfully so, that the rights defined in the Bill of Rights could be exclusionary to those not enumerated.

    Certainly, many of the Founders had their weaknesses. About that there is no disagreement. No one who has studied the Constitution considers the Founding Fathers as larger-than-life gods. However, they did recognize the body politic, and drafted a document which was, and still is, superior to all other constitutions.

    Dennis
     
  12. b12

    b12 Well-Known Member

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    A good many of the weathy went broke supporting the war. Many used their own money to pay the troops.
    How many of men today would fight to save this country without being paid. That question could probaby be answered by the same amount that save this country in the beginning. Bill
     
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