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Ford is Next!

Discussion in 'Politics, Elections & Legislation' started by seattlesue, Sep 5, 2011.

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  1. seattlesue

    seattlesue TS Member

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    Ford will be next..... unions are destroying Industry in the United States. Unions are planning to strike, I say OUTLAW ALL unions and put people to work. ss LMAO
     
  2. gailmk67

    gailmk67 Member

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    Just a question...I have been exposed or involved on both sides of the collective bargaining process table in union leadership and company management. I have also been exposed to both union and non union companies also both large and small in labor and management. If you don't mind my asking, why so anti union? I have my opinions on both but would welcome your comments and experiences prior to giving mine if you please.
    Thank you and kind regards
    Joe Kraus
     
  3. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    I was in the Teamsters for over 20 years, never called them for any reason, they never called me ... I paid my dues and collect my pension when I turn 65, when I was working the insurance was second to none ... I went to one meeting in all those years, that was enough for me ... If you wanted to work, you didn't have a choice but to join ...

    I was also in the IPFFA (Illinois Professional Fire Fighters Association) , paid my dues and got a little booklet 4 times a year, pension direct from the Dept and village, (MFFA) ... (Combined Countys Police Association, never got anything from them but notices that my dues were due and a decal for my car) WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  4. R.Kipling

    R.Kipling Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to believe that people are not anti-union, they are anti-excess. It's the arrogance and callous disregard exhibited by some union members and leadership like little-Hoffa's comments this weekend that cause the intense discourse that has become prevalent today.

    Union's are a minority, and really always have been. They need to police their own against scenes like the one I've posted above if they intend to get any real public support beyond immediate family members. For all the good unions have done, it's these images that capture the minds of the general public, who struggle to pay the big repair bills on their union built cars.

    Today, we are facing a changing environment that is being increasingly defined by "Have's and Have-nots". People will always vote their own self-interests, so I don't expect the discourse to lessen anytime soon.........sad days ahead for the USA.


    Kip (42 year union member)
     
  5. tarhawk

    tarhawk TS Member

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    My anti-union sentiment comes from 41 years of being in the work force both as a union member and non union member. Every time I feel I was screwed over in the work place it was the UNION that screwed me, not MANAGEMENT. Case in point:
    My first job out of college was with a company that had an office union. After working with this company for about two years, I decided to take another job at a different company that was non-union. After turning in my notice, management approached me and asked me to stay. They told me that they wanted to pay me more money as an encouragement to stay but the UNION would not allow it. The union said that their contract said that a person with my job title and with my seniority was to be paid $XX.XX per hour and not a penny less. (Not a penny more either as it turns out.) One of my co-workers (union) said I was crazy to take a job at a non-union company as the contract said there was to to be a 3% raise at the end of the year. I took the non-union job anyway for the same pay. After 30 days in the non-union job I got a 10% raise, after six months I got another 5%, and at year end, another 5% raise as well as a $500.00 bonus. Please notice I said "I" got the raises and bonus. I have confidence in my own abilities and work ethic and don't feel I need a union to represent me and in effect hold me down. I have other examples, but that is enough for now.
     
  6. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Joe, I have been reading the anti union posts on here for a good number of years.

    In many cases the spouting is done by individuals who were never in a union, and many who never punched a clock.

    In one of my early jobs I could have been fired for something that was not my doing, and the union set things straight.

    I have also seen severe abuses and indolence by union workers, much to their discredit.

    I guess it's what you make it, and how you were raised.

    HM
     
  7. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    R.Kipling, good post, you are right.

    All you other posters are correct as well, because everyone has experienced something different on both sides of the union/management issue, but one should not enjoy more rights over the other.
     
  8. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "I have my opinions on both but would welcome your comments and experiences prior to giving mine if you please."

    I don't know if you were addressing the OP or not but I will give my feelings on one Union. I was a union member for 29 1/2 years. The company decided to close the door and move south. They informed the work force of their timetable for this action.

    The contract came due in June they said they would be done before that they finally closed the doors in November that is five without a new contract. They took away seniority right because some that they needed to facilitate the move had less seniority but were more qualified. The Union said that it made sense and allowed it. They then told us they were cutting the severance package everyone would get 25 cents on the dollar. The Union said nothing you can do.

    In the end I got a little over 7.5 weeks pay. I should have got 30 weeks. I was qualified to do any thing they need done and when I wanted to leave because I had a job waiting they said no you have to stay, The Union said if you leave they( the company )would stop my unemployment checks.

    I told them they new what they could do with their checks.

    Now why should I have anything good to say about the Union??? They screwed the members at every turn and collected the dues every pay period until the doors were closed. They also got dues from me when they were supposed to be paid for 29 1/2 years and when it came time to make sure I and the rest got the benefits that were due them they did nothing.

    You can tell me about Unions all you want I will never give a Union another dollar. Or a word of praise for that matter.

    Bob Lawless
     
  9. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

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    If Ford was smart, they would tell the union to take a hike. Then tell the government to do the same.

    Then open the US market to all the "GOOD" stuff they make that we as American's aren't allowed to buy!!

    In doing so, they would put the other big 2 out of business!!

    I would love to own a Ford Ranger 4x4 with a small diesel that get 50+ mpg!

    They make it, "Export Only"

    My stench in the union taught me one thing, Union protectionism is no different then legalized extortion.

    I can remember NO time during the destruction of the logging industry where a union thug went after ANY of the factions attacking it!!

    The private company's fought tooth and nail, unions where looking for higher wages and more time off with pay! During the same time frame.
     
  10. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    I think Henry Ford already tried that almost a century ago and that is why we have laws in favor of the union today.
     
  11. RobertT

    RobertT Well-Known Member

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    One needs to study history and the genesis of Unions before entirely condeming them. Granted, on many levels they have become problematic, particularly in the public sector. In the private sector they are largely small locals representing the membership through honest collective bargaining.

    Joe, I once worked for a GM who said he'd rather quit then do his job without Union representation for the workers. Said with a clear cut contract labor relations were greatly simplified.

    Many of us have gone entire careers quietly paying Union dues while doing our job day in and day out without complaint and never running afoul of Management. We went home every night and forgot the job till it was time to report for work the next day, quietly collecting our paychecks week in and week out. We never had to worry about job security should we become sick or injured, whether we would have vacation time and be allowed to take it and who was looking out for our medical benefits and future pensions, along with a myriad of other benefits. With few exceptions, all most of us had to complain about was having to pay those damn Union dues.

    I often wonder what the current day workplace would be like without years of lobbying by Unions in Washington and the State capitols for laws protecting all American workers.

    Now, if only I could get those monthly dues back with interest payed over a thirty plus year career. Oh Wait! I already have.

    Having said all the above, Hoffa Jr. along with his Obama supporting cronies are destroying decades of hard work and the American way of life. I believe at the local level, most unionized workers will vote independantly at the polls.

    Robert
     
  12. BigBadBob

    BigBadBob TS Member

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    I am a union carpenter from St. Louis. I have been in the union for over 25 years. I pay $23.00 per month directly to my local and then there is a dues "check-off" that is deducted from my check that is taken after all other deductions. In a good year of which we have had few the last 4 or 5, I weill work an average of 1800 hours. There are 2080 hours available (52 weeks x 40 hours a week). In an average year I will pay $1300 to $1500 in union dues. Sounds like a whole lot of money but in return I get very good health insurance for my wife and 2 kids that are still at home, i will have a respectable pension when I retire, I have a safe workplace and ETC. If I don't work I don't get paid. If I don't work a minimum amount of hours I don't have insurance, I don't have a paid vacation nor do I get paid holidays.
    The way I see it, most people that are anti-union have no idea what they are talking about. They seem to be jealous more than anything. No one made me join a union just like no one made most people take the jobs they had. I made the choice to be a union carpenter bacause of the guaranteed wage, gauranteed benefits, training in the work I chose and somewhat of a future. I could have worked non-union and would have made close to the same money, but would not ahve had the benefits of insurance and a pension.Until you have walked in another persons shoes or mine for that matter, get off the union bashing and shut the %$#@ up!!
     
  13. Hal1225

    Hal1225 Member

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    Hi, we all get bills to pay. Union or no union it's not easy to live. In the old days a good or great toolmaker didn't need the union, today with all the companies moving and down sizing the need for the union is here. They dropped the ball on imports and Walmart. I don't knock them because human nature being what it is they are a necessity. In the old days my father took us for a Sunday drive, now my sister works Sundays to pay the rent. Good Luck to everyone, both union and non union workers.

    Harry
     
  14. Shooting Jack

    Shooting Jack Active Member

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    I'm not expressing my opinion but if you watched a tv special on unions that represent Chrysler motors you could not say anything good about the union or workers either. Drinking a quart of beer for lunch or smoking a doobie or three for lunch and still getting backed by the union ain't right any way you look at it. At a local Wells Cargo plant I watched as many of the workers did the same thing, often with a police officer setting in the parking lot keeping an eye on the check cashing truck and watching workers pay off their weekly drug bill. Yep, I passed on that job. It would have been a good paying job but I refused to get involved in that crap. Jackie B.
     
  15. warren

    warren Member

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    Ford has just annouced that they are building a new plant in India and hiring 5000 workers. There should be some sort of message in this.

    warren
     
  16. gailmk67

    gailmk67 Member

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    Business closes doors in U.S. and moves over seas..... Workers making too much money? BS! The reason for the move is very simple. Greed! Higher profit margin on their product. The company now can employ a work force in (what ever 3rd world country) for pennies on the dollar compared to what they would/ should pay an American worker. Owner and CEO take a pay cut equal to that of the work force?? You can bet your bottom that they did not. Tell me what human is worth 10 million dollars/yr plus bonuses. I bet the CEO of the electric company most of you pay your utility bills to makes close to that. Do you remember the CEO of GM arrived by private jet to beg for bail out money from the government to save that company? What was his yearly salary. Probably a union pilot that flew the plane though.
    Contract negotiations are just that, negotiations. If I am sitting on one side of the table and ask for x amount of dollar(s) on the hour plus benefits thru the life of the contract on behalf of the employees and the other side agrees to that proposal than that the way it is. Why should that be the unions fault! The company reps should be aware of their P/L statements and be able to make a good decision. If not, shame on them. Conversely, if I apply for a job and the company makes an offer, then I have the option of accepting the offer or going elsewhere. Its my choice, but still negotiations. We each have a choice.
    If one of you are selling a gun, and that gun is grossly over priced, is it your fault that I am ignorant enough to pay your price and buy it? I would hope not.
    Believe me I know that a great many in union leadership have strayed away from their purpose. Just like our political leadership. I have no union or political alliances. They all need to be “reeled back in”. We need to keep the business in this country and Americans working.
    Every contract that is bid by company XYZ to build what ever ( hospital, power plant, school etc). There is a need to factor in, depending on the size of the project, cost for employee injuries, accidents and casualties. All companies bid with those same numbers. Why shouldn’t the people swinging the hammers working the equipment, and taking the risk make a decent rate of pay.
    Regards, Joe
     
  17. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing wrong with a person making a decent rate of pay, nor is there anything wrong with a CEO making a lot of money if he owns the company or the stockholders want him there to make a profit.

    What is not right is government and enviro wackos strangulation on business.
    Part of protecting the human envrioment is allowing people to have a job to benifit and make better the human condidition.
     
  18. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

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    Example of a union "decent wage"

    The one I belonged to, regrettably, worked out a contract where all workers got their birthday off, IF they worked that day, they got double time!

    Based on years employed, a employee who had 20 years in received 12 weeks paid leave. At your second year you received one week paid leave.

    Sounds "Great" don't it??????

    Yep, it caused the company to give more work to the non-union contractors!!!!

    I finally had to quit the union and went to work for one of "those" contractors. What did I find,"I" had to produce(work)!! Under union employ, I was told NOT to or face their wrath. I would become a "unsafe" worker because a worker who puts out to much will have an accident!!

    I was in my early 20's then, and was smart enough to understand "extortion" when I seen it!
     
  19. gailmk67

    gailmk67 Member

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    Rick, I agree with you 100%. Most people cannot comprehend what impact "unreasonable" EPA regulations have on business. I am all for saving the planet for future generations. I like and spend just as much time in the "great outdoors" as anyone. But lets be realistic.
    Case in point: Clean air standards. Coal fired power generating stations are now "moth balling" units because their emmissions cannot meet clean air standards. In order to meet those standards they are either forced to shut down the unit or spend several millions of dollars on scrubber systems for their stacks. Which equates to job loss both union and non union. What does that mean to the power consumer? Higher electric rates, someone has to pay for the upgrade or pay for the revenue loss. The genius on Pennsylvania Ave and his posse have absolutely no clue. Most of the power plants in this area are 40 plus years old and rates are rediculous now as well as other parts of the country. This is not unique to the midwest. Can't build a nuke plant....nowhere to get rid of the waste! Futhermore with the recent happenings in Japan it would be difficult to get the public behind it. Not feasible to construct wind turbins not enough area. So what happens?
    Jobs are lost because of plant closures and electric rates go up.
    Just like that nitwit Gore and his global warming. This area was covered with a thick sheet of ice a couple 100 thousand years ago and is not now. I would say that the climate here has significantly changed during that time. Should we be alarmed or is that just a planetary cycle. I would hate to guess how much money was channeled into that study and is still ongoing.
    How about lead contamination at the gun clubs is it really that bad or are a few blowing this way out of proportion for personal gain? I happen like many others to believe the latter. Lead sinkers for fishing or lead shot for migratory game. I don't believe that any of these have enough of an impact to outlaw their use. Just a simple case of a few individuals over reacting.You would think that we were shooting mustard gas canisters at clay targets. The same people that move from the cities into the countryside and complain about the smell and noise from the farm that has been in operation for possibly a century that is now being forced to do what ever is necessary to control the smell even if that means shutting down operations as far as the crier is concerned so be it, now thats fair. But what do you do to educate the masses? The sqeaky wheel gets the grease and the rest have to make due. I would love to know how my fathers generation and his before him survived prior to big brother saving us from ourselves. Listening to most of the scare tactics in the media it surprises me that we are not all begining to mutate. Or have we? Is this a union problem or an American population problem. I think it a population problem that the population can assist in fixing. Sooner or later we have to climb on the soap box and hand in hand (E pluribus unum) shout enough is enough! This would be the change I would welcome.
    Your Thoughts appreciated
    Regards, Joe
     
  20. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Public education is the main reason we are in the mess we are, with its policical agenda.


    Funny you mention coal plants. Obama told us before he was elected, he wanted to put the coal plant electric companies out of business. Then he pushes electric car, primarily the Chev "Volt."

    Always tickles me when the enviro wackos talk about electric cars then fail to understand they need electic power from power plants, either coal fired or nuclear to charge up those cars.
     
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