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?? For Stock Fitters... LOP

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Carol Lister, Mar 9, 2009.

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  1. Carol Lister

    Carol Lister TS Member

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    At a well-known gun dealer Saturday trying out trap guns, I shouldered one that was too long for me. The dealer was quick to offer that the LOP of that one would have to be shortened.

    I let the comment pass while he quickly added that the position of the trigger was adjustable over a 1/2" range and that several trigger shoes were available.

    I asked him if there was a standard dimension for the position of a shotgun trigger relative to the pistol grip. He replied "No", not that he knew of. So I asked him what would happen to the LOP of this gun if I moved the trigger all the way front. He said, "It gets 1/4" longer." I asked, "What about if it's all the way back?". He said, "It gets 1/2" shorter." Then I said, "My head is still in exactly the same place on the comb and my hand is in exactly the same place on the grip. You've changed the LOP by a 1/2" and nothing has moved but the tip of my finger. Why are you talking about changing the distance between the trigger and the butt pad if we can move it a full 1/2" and not alter the fit of the gun at all?"

    He looked at the gun for a while and then just handed me another to try.

    So I'm asking a stock fitter... what is the value of measuring the LOP from the trigger to the butt pad if moving the trigger front to back changes the LOP measurement but doesn't change the cheek/comb/stock/grip relationship?

    Carol Lister
     
  2. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

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    The problem was that the person you were dealing with had a brain the size of a small pea.

    LOP is only a convenient measurement, but it really doesn't have much importance. What is important is the distance of your hand to the trigger so you can comfortably pull the trigge; and the distance from your hand to the butt pad, which determines whether your hand will bump your nose or glasses. After that it's a matter of a length that will give you control of the gun, a good range of movement, and a smooth swing.

    Possibly a real gunfitter can add something to this.
     
  3. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

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    I am no way a gunfitter, but the old addage of having a standard length of pull is nonsense. In general with a higher rib gun & having a more upright head position you should have a shorter length of pull (distance from trigger to the middle of the recoil pad(


    also, the distance from the grip to the trigger is usually fixed unless you get a gun with a trigger adjustment. My doubles gun , which I haven't shot much has a PFS & an adjustable trigger (Beretta 682)---Carol to be sure get a gun that you can use a PFS on & has an adjustable trigger---you can make it work.

    Phil Berkowitz
     
  4. Carol Lister

    Carol Lister TS Member

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    <blockquote>"...Carol to be sure get a gun that you can use a PFS on & has an adjustable trigger---you can make it work."</blockquote>
    No, no PFS stocks for me. I had the opportunity to shoot another woman's BT-99 with a new PFS on it for a month. I put about 2000 rounds through it, and it was the most insecure-feeling thing I've ever shouldered. The cheek piece flexed and the butt pad twisted and it felt like it was made of silly putty. I prefer wood, properly fit.

    Carol Lister
     
  5. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Carol an I copy your post and use it when questioned about PFS?
     
  6. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    Carol,

    The gun dealer you were talking to was a bit under-informed. He was correct when he told you that when the trigger position is changed, the LOP changes an equal amount. (I have to wonder why he thought that trigger shoes would interest you when the stock was already too long.)

    The problem and his misunderstanding is created because there is no widespread understanding of how grip dimensions and overall stock length, i.e. LOP, differ in their effects.

    Trigger adjustment is useful when a slight compensation for different hand sizes is needed. What you wisely pointed out (and it went over the dealer's head) is that LOP doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the purposes of establishing a correct LOP for a particular shooter.

    Oversimplified, a correct LOP allows a shooter to shoot without unwelcome meetings of the nose and thumb while allowing him or her to swing the gun accurately as a stock too long often prevents.

    There is also more to determining a correct LOP other than the distance between nose and thumb, commonly judged to be between 1.0 and 1.5 inches. One consideration is the stance that is used. An edge-on or oblique stance requires a longer LOP than one with the shooter facing targets more directly. LOP should be determined with the shooter using the stance that will be used or most frequently used when the gun is fired.

    Something else that affects LOP is the height of the shooter's gun mount. A low mount requires a longer LOP than a correct mount because the neck must be leaned forward as the cheek is lowered to meet the comb, which is unfortunate for several reasons. Like the stance, mount height should be considered when choosing the correct LOP (and it should remain the same when the gun if fired at targets).

    Gum dealers and salespeople are getting more informed as time goes on. Fortunately, this trend will continue. They are not only realizing that more shooters are becoming better informed and that the lack of knowledge can affect the sale as you demonstrated.

    When I used to shop for guns (that shot better) years ago when all had combs too high, I was told repeatedly that I would "get used to it."

    Rollin
     
  7. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    Just going through this issue of grip length and LOP with my teenage son. He normally shoots a PFS but has outgrown the LOP adjustment. So now we're trying to get a wood stock to fit him.

    Caveat - I'm trying to do this on a budget so we have sought out the most cost effective means to get a custom fit without spending thousands to do it.

    The length of grip has been the most challenging - getting his hand in the right position and the trigger shoe to properly seat in the 1st crease - getting that relationship properly established has been the most challenging part so far. He has an adjustable trigger too but prefers the trigger shoe in the most rearward position - personal preference, but that's what he likes and is the most comfortable position for him to shoot in. We keep working back the grip in small increments with rasps and sandpaper and notching the thumb position back as we go - we've taken out an inch of wood from the standard 3" grip so far and need another 1/4" to get it right. In the process we've taken out a good chunk of the palm swell and had to rebuild on the backside to get that rock solid feel on the pad of your thumb.

    The LOP is around 17 3/4" right now and his face is JUST barely on the comb with less than 1/2" of wood separating his face from his thumb. Think Glen Eller stock crawler extraodinaire!
     
  8. Carol Lister

    Carol Lister TS Member

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    Thanks for the replies. I appreciate the input.

    gun fitter: be my guest!

    Rollin, I've read your Stock Fitting Secrets through several times and appreciate the work very much.

    I mount the top of the butt pad about 1/4" above the top of my shoulder, my head is level and my stance is more closed than open. I have 2 fingers of space between the end of my nose and my thumb and I like the trigger to fall on the pad of my index finger while the tip joint is not yet at a right angle to the rib.

    Have you ever figured out conclusively why a 1/4" removed from the end of a stock results in the nose moving 1" closer to the thumb?

    Carol Lister
     
  9. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    Oversimplified, a correct LOP allows a shooter to shoot without unwelcome meetings of the nose and thumb while allowing him or her to swing the gun accurately as a stock too long often prevents.

    Rollin - I respect your knowledge but in regards to the above statement the relation between nose and thumb is a style preference and has NOTHING to do with fit, proper sight picture or your ability to swing the gun. I would refer you to almost every bunker shooter that crawls the stock, some even with their thumbs behind their noses - they seem to shoot very well - some of the best shooters in the world seem to pay little regard to this nose/thumb magic.
     
  10. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

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    Not just the bunker shooters, but the sporting clays shooters as well. Many of the younger sporting clay shooters, including the best in the U.S., Anthony Matarese Jr., actually have their nose so far forward that they keep their thumb off to the side to avoid contact with his nose. Like a lot of other great shooters who stock crawl quite a bit, the pad of their gun is well below the top of their shoulder, and they also dispell the idea that your head has to be erect.
    Of course, these shooters probably haven't read Rollin's book.
     
  11. threedeuces

    threedeuces TS Member

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    I am learning all of this. With that said my JE 687 with the rad II lop adjusted to where it felt the best was right at 14 3/8". Now with my new CG the length of pull is 14 3/4" and it works swell. I like it very well at that length. I adjusted my 687 out to 14 3/4" and it was way to long feeling. Tell me how this can be with two different guns. The only reason I can come up with is the pistol grips are such a different design.
    O, by the way. The CG is a higher ribbed gun than the 687 so if what was said above is true, I should be at a shorter LOP with the CG.
     
  12. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    ff & Dick,

    Reread the 5th paragraph I wrote - "commonly judged to be"...

    Carol,

    No, I have not seen a believable explanation of the 4:1 ratio.

    Rollin
     
  13. chiefjon

    chiefjon Active Member

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    Fred,

    I have not been shooting with you guys for a while, that boy of yours must be growning like a weed. Glad I'm not having to feed him... I have some concerns over a LOP of 17+ inches. I would have someone look at his posture and grip. I know he is tall and slim, but I wonder how many shooters have that long a LOP.

    I would try and keep him in that PFS. A call to Vern Brown might get you some help with a longer PFS if necessary.

    Not trying to butt in, just offering my 2cents.

    Hope to see you guys after May.

    JON
     
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