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For Neil Winston on target setting

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Klay_Buster, Aug 24, 2007.

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  1. Klay_Buster

    Klay_Buster TS Member

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    With all this discussion about radar guns vs 50 yard stakes, etc.
    I believe that the objective is to set legal targets, and have consistency from trap to trap. It doesn't matter which method is used, as long as results provide great target presentation.

    My question is about elevation differences. A club at sea level to one at 5000 or even 10000 feet. I find that using a top quality radar gun and 50 yard stakes, that as one goes up in elevation, the speed required to go 50 yards goes down. This is in thin low humidity mountain air. My experiments have determined that 42mph at sea level will result in about 1mph less required for every 3 to 4 thousand feet. Any opinion.

    Also one needs to pay attention to target speed as the day warms up. I find that Pat traps can easily increase 2mph from where they were set in the morning. Again Any comments.

    Just looking to see if other people have seen the same.

    When guide lines are set for radar guns, elevation may be a factor.

    Use the 50 yard stakes to determine what is the correct speed for your radar gun of choice, and your club. I also use a digital angle meter off the flat plate of the Pat trap for height. That is after you use a T bar to determine what the correct angle should be. You need to turn off the Pat trap to reduce the vibration to get a good digital angle setup.
    Thanks, Dave
     
  2. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    While our club doesn't throw registered targets, we want to throw legal targets like everyone else. Will the transition to the use of speed and elevation methodology eliminate the 50 yard parameter?!

    Jay Spitz
     
  3. Klay_Buster

    Klay_Buster TS Member

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    No. I think the 50 yard stake is the reference point forever. It's just that some clubs don't have level ground out to 50 yards, and they wish to use another method for setting distance / speed.
     
  4. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    Klay Buster...

    I was going to stay out of this argument but you just had to bring this subject up. Speed differences at altitude. You are correct although I suspect that Mr. Winston and Ireland will argue the point. Everything being equal (and it seldom is) the difference is about 2-3% between sea level and 6-7000 feet. The trick is having a radar gun and set up to determine the difference and thats where the problem is. Radar guns have their place but there needs to be some careful considerations as to the standards for their use. The current guidelines are so loose that I can see fist fights amongst target setters.

    There is no substitute for a properly installed range stake and height pole setting.

    Now I suspect the flames to begin...

    TB
     
  5. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    My understanding of the new rule is it is either, or. Existing rules call for a target to be thrown NLT 49 yds and NMT 51 yards with a target height of between 8' and 10' when measured 10 yards from Point b. ATA recommended height is 9' or 9'6".

    Our club used height and distance in still air to set our traps until last year. We bought a chrono on a Pat Pal Arm. When we follow the directions, the target trajectory is exactly the same as when set using a 50 yard stake in still air. Now that I have acquired a radar gun, the same thing applies (when used properly and consistently).

    ATA rules do not require each target to fly 50 yards. If they were launched at a velocity that would have allowed them to travel 50 yards (at 9' target height), they are legal even if a head wind makes them drop sooner, or a tail wind makes them sail farther.

    With that as a given, using a chronograph or a radar gun to measure target speed using_the_precise_setups_the_rule_book_is_promised_to_specify for different guns and mounting positions means if you hit a 9' crossbar located ten yards from Point B and your properly mounted, calibrated and aimed radar gun reads 42, 43 or 45MPH (depending on where you are reading from and with which gun), you are legal whether you have a 50 yard stake or not.
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    KB, my results are in the third section of the above link. I got about a yard between 900 ft and Denver. To get that, I had to use an instrument far, far more repeatable than any radar gun. Jerry Hauser, using a different method and Red Mountain and Prescott got no difference at all.

    Tbaber, why do you keep this up? I thought I'd cleared that up with a Les Greely article in T&F. There's no difference. Where did you get your numbers? I finally met BE and unfortunately failed to check on your reference to him as a source. My impression of him, however, is that he's way too smart to make a mistake like that.

    Neil
     
  7. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    On a similar note, a Sears digital level will find more height pole discrepancies than anyone ever thought. Especially in areas where the ground freezes. I would be willing to bet that this is the rule, rather than the exception at a lot of clubs. This is assuming the trap and yardage lines are at the correct height.

    Regarding reading target speed, after using a chrono and radar gun through-out the summer, the radar gun is the best and most convenient way to set speed. Provided the user knows what he is doing.

    A properly tuned Pat Trap set at 21.1 to 21.4 degrees of angle, speed set to 41.5 mph with White Flyers, will throw a 49 to 50 yard target in calm wind.

    On another thread, someone said you will be amazed how consistent multiple traps can be set, and I sure agree.
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Neil and Jerry Hauser have the best data I have seen describing the relationship among target speed, distance and altitude. There appears not to be a significant affect on decreasing air density and target distance. Humidity was also mentioned above, but its possible effects were described backward. Increasing humidity decreases air density. I would venture a guess that leaving everything else constant and changing the humidity from 20% to 95% could make as much as one eight inch difference in target flight.

    And, if targets do have lift (that is another topic), a decrease in air density would also decrease the lift (Sorry about bringing this up again Neil). When I used to set targets to a marker at 50 yards, I was happy if I could get 10 targets to fall within 1/2 yard of each other. Differences in target weight and spin rate will make a much greater difference in target distance than differences in air density.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. guncase

    guncase TS Member

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    I would be willing to bet a small chunk of change that there are very,very few of these "experts" that can tell the difference in a 41 or a 42 mph target, without a radar gun in their hands! I have shot close to a million targets in my life and I can't!

    I CAN , however, tell too high and too low which will affect the target distance more than one would believe. I think the best way to set target height is still with a pole at 30 ft! Choose what height you want and then move it to see what happens. Paul
     
  10. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    guncase, I'm certainly not an expert, but I can see a difference. The 41MPH target looks slower (which was a surprise in itself) and definitely falls shorter (we left our 50 yard stakes). Now, if you threw those targets and asked me to tell you how fast they were going on the way up, I couldn't. I could only say faster or slower, not tell you how many MPH they were going.

    I'll also say I've seen expert target setters set by "eye". They turn and tweak, look, tweak some more, and all of a sudden it looks "right" and they stop. Every time I've checked them, it was.
     
  11. Bob M

    Bob M Member

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    I take target setting at our club seriously. We don't throw ATA targets, but many of our shooters do shoot ATA. I shot the grades for each trap with a DeWalt laser level and set the traps to hit the 10 yard pole at the 9 foot tape band. There is about a 6 inch difference in grade from trap to trap, so there are two tape bands on the pole. We fiddle with the crank until the targets hit the base of the 50 yard pin.

    (I am not anal retentive and I do not have OCD, but I am really, really focused on small details most of the time.)

    I still hear that they 'don't look right'. Frustrating!!!

    I feel better now... I think the radar gun option is a nice additional tool to use for target setting. Especially when there are grade issues that make a 50 yard stake an impossibility. However, will clubs now be hearing, 'Well if they had a radar gun, I would have broken all of them.'?
     
  12. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    From Bob Schultz,


    IF your Pat Trap is located in the house properly. Meaning that when the target on the arm is at rest, with the machine cocked, it is at the same level as the top of the pad on post three...then a target launched at 21.2 to 21.5 degrees will be very close to 9.5 feet high at the 10 yard distance. Each full degree on the angle finder represents 6.2 inches of elevation change and each tenth of a degree ( measured with the Digital Angle finder) is 5/8 or .62 inches. This seems close enough for me.



    Knowing this, if you are setting targets on a bad day with windy conditions you can set the targets to the standard setting THEN make minor corrections to adjust for the prevailing conditions. However, you would be amazed at how little of an adjustment is necessary from your standard target to obtain shootable targets.



    The point being, on a good day you can set very consistent targets field to field and shooters will be happy. On a bad day you can adjust from a known standard on each field and throw very consistent targets and shooters will be happy. Last time I checked we do this for fun. Most shooters like to shoot good targets and good scores. If you want to have shooters return to your club, make an effort to set the best targets you can. They will appreciate the effort and come back for more.



    By the way we sell the Pro speed radar gun for $589 plus UPS. We also have the digital angle finders for $89 and a case that fits all the above for $20.



    Thanks and shoot well, Bob Schultz Toll free 800-684-6329
     
  13. Klay_Buster

    Klay_Buster TS Member

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    Thanks for the comments. Regardless of which tools we use to set targets, the bttom line is that some people take more pride in throwing the very best target regardless of conditions. I have been setting targets for over forty years, and I still learn new techniques to improve. Just wish everyone who sets targets would take the care that some of us try to acheive.
    I just started this thread to determine if there is an actual elevation speed diference. I have no arguments with how the rules are written. My goal is for consistency trap to trap. Hope everyone has a great shooting weekend. Dave
     
  14. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    Mr. Winston...

    Your comment "I got about a yard between 900 ft and Denver." seems to confirm my research that there is about a 2-3% difference in target speed from Seal Level to 5-6000ft. (1 Yard on 50 yards is 2 %) Additionally your comment about the accuracy of the instrument used is also on target. The current crop of radar guns are not accurate enough to pick up this small difference. (this is why Les Greevys comments are not valid) Its a small difference but it can as you state could amount to a ± 1 yard distance.

    I don't want to belabor this much but its going to be an interesting discussion when someone in Denver for example sets the target at 42MPH only to see it sail over the 50 yard line. Further I hope the "standards" the you issue are better that the "guidelines" I read earlier this year. As I have stated before radar is a great tool to get all the traps at a given club on a given day throwing equally. There need to be clear unambiguous standard for the employment of these devices if not let the arguments begin.

    My hat is off to Klay Buster.... he gets it... He understand the limitations of the new rule. Its all about setting the best target possible. I'll bet he could write a great ATA standard for target setting.

    TB
     
  15. jim brown

    jim brown Well-Known Member

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    TB,

    You are picking knits with your 2% difference. The variation in the manufacture of targets and wind currents in the flight path cause larger variation than that. If you are one of those guys who thinks you can drop 10 targets in a peach basket you must have a really big peach basket. If you throw 5 targets at sea level and 5 targets at 5000 feet elevation and find one yard difference what caused the difference? It could be elevation but did the targets come from the same mold on the same machine made from the same batch of material? Are you really sure the wind was absolutely calm on the ENTIRE flight path? (Remember thermal currents are usually present) Throwing clay targets is not done with the same precision as building a fine Swiss watch.

    jim brown
     
  16. cim jr.

    cim jr. TS Member

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    I bet I can guess the speed within a half mile an hour on a trap.Its not as hard as some think.Also there is a big distance between Mid-West targets and White Flyers if you set them the same.Mid West will go the distance with less spring.They are a lighter target and it takes less spring to make them go 49yds.

    CIM
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Charlie- I respect your opinion and accomplishments, but I think I would take your bet that you can tell 1/2 MPH difference in the speed of targets. Will you be at the Dixie Grand? We could confirm either your opinion or mine. I will bring my Pro Speed gun.

    Pat Ireland
     
  18. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    Mr. Brown:

    I agree that there is not much difference but your statement "Throwing clay targets is not done with the same precision as building a fine Swiss watch." is where the problem lies. With Radar guns there will be people who will ask why can't the target be thrown precisely at 42MPH. The ATA must write a standard to eliminate the bickering about target speed that will come from this change in target setting procedures.

    TB
     
  19. cim jr.

    cim jr. TS Member

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    Pat,
    Your on the losser buys dinner at the winners choice of fine resturants.I will show you just exactly how to do it but it will cost you big time.

    CIM
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    CIM- How about the loser buying a Coke for the winner?

    Pat Ireland
     
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