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Food for thought on economic downturn and recovery

Discussion in 'Politics, Elections & Legislation' started by Trappy12, Jul 16, 2011.

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  1. Trappy12

    Trappy12 Active Member

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    I'm going to start out by saying this, though doubtful it will do any good to get the points of this argument across. THIS is NOT political or partisan. The arguments laid out here are based on facts and nothing more. No speculation, no political bias, no media reporting. These are documented, and actual economic facts. The point? Feed the vast majority of Americans, feed the middle class, not the top-end.

    Since 1980 the American economy has doubled in size. Great! However, with adjusted inflation wages have maintained flat. What does that mean? It means that though the economy has grown stronger, the middle class has not, and due to the doubled size of the economy it means the middle class has actually become weaker. So where did all that money go? Well the super rich of course. Pre-1980 the top 1% made up 10% of total income, now it is over 20%. They also have over 40% of the nation's total wealth. Problem is, all the money gives the super rich tons of political power (Thank you Citizens United Vs. FEC) so they can keep lowering their own taxes. Pre-1980 the top income bracket was 70%, now it is 35%. On top of that, most of their income is capital gains which is only a 15% tax. The IRS says that the most wealthy 400 Americans pay only 17% in taxes. So guess what! The National debt is, where? Revenue is the lowest in 60 years. Stop talking about lowering the budget exclusively and start talking about what will really help and raise our country's revenue! Because the middle class is unable to borrow as they were before, their purchasing power is MUCH less than it was before which means a very very slow recovery and continued high unemployment rates.
    Bubble up works, trickle down clearly does not. Even through the recession the low Bush tax rates have been kept, well where has that gotten us? The richest Americans continue to get tax breaks and keep getting a high percentage of the country's wealth. Where is the trickle down? How much have your wages REALLY increased over the last 30 years? How much of that economy which has doubled in size has gone to the middle class? Well, none.
     
  2. RobertT

    RobertT Well-Known Member

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    Liberalism is still a mental disorder but your still young enough, hopefully with years of treatment you will recover.

    Robert
     
  3. Barrelbulge(Fl)

    Barrelbulge(Fl) Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Seems pretty close,accurate. The middle class has been losing ground for a long time. America has been shifting to a two class society. Bulge.
     
  4. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    You have to be really stupid not to know that 50 per cent of Americans filing 1040's pay ZERO dollars in income tax. Some even get more back than they put in.

    So how can you point fingers at 4 hundred people when 40 million or more are deadbeats? YOu sound like Obama pointing to those boogeymen "corporate jet owners", how many are there? 50? A hundred? He talks like there's one on every block stealing from us. What a moron. And those who swallow it are worse than morons. Most of those jets belong to companies that us Po' folks have in our 401Ks. Yeah lets make it tougher on them. Woo Hoo.

    Go back to your Jr. High school liberal social science class till you get it figured out.

    HM
     
  5. mette56

    mette56 Well-Known Member

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    The mantra of the left: "Trickle down clearly does not work."

    Anything to bash R.R. The left will never give up defacing the greatest President ever, IMO. Guess 'cause he made them look so bad.

    God Bless and rest the soul of Ronald Reagan!

    milt
     
  6. R.Kipling

    R.Kipling Well-Known Member

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    Trappy,

    I'm glad to see that you're teying to think. Your theory breaks down early when you identify your premiss as "facts". Try incerting these premises into your thinking.

    1. the economy has not gotten stronger, jus larger.

    2.
     
  7. Shooting Jack

    Shooting Jack Active Member

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    HM, I'm visiting in a area, Panama City, Fl and there are thousands upon thousands of millionaires here and it's that way from the coast of Texas all the way down the Gulf and back up through the East Coast. I have no idea just how many millionaires there are but I know quite a few personally and also know that they don't pay taxes. I'm in the $50,000.00 a year income and know that I pay more in taxes than most of them that I know. In that area I totally agree with Trappy. I also know the middle income is no longer middle due to the cost of living and economy. As far as the dead beats I agree with you that we need to work seriously on that. We, the government created this situation and we need to fix it. Anyone on disability need to needs to be checked and folks drawing unimployment need to be put to working cleaning roads, court houses etc it they draw a check and need to be followed up on to see if they are actually looking for a job. Jackie B.
     
  8. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

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    Trappy, you might want to look up the word CORRUPTION, then include it in your facts. The problem isn't that trickle down has failed, the problem is that we don't have trickle down due to our legislators at every level having been purchased by the very wealthy you speak of. The fact remains however that the problem isn't on the taxing side of the equation, it's on the spending side. If congress took 100% of the income of the wealthiest people in America it still wouldn't be a drop in the bucket to what we are spending. You are doing exactly what Obama and company want you to. You are being blinded to the truth by your "feelings" that someone is doing better than you, and it isn't fair, and once you give in to that non-cerebral conclusion your mind will probe no further in a quest for the truth. The truth is the American people were bought off with their own money, and money that was borrowed on their behalf. Once a free people gives in to the free candy of free income, or even income stolen from them because their betters know better how to invest it for them, they are screwed. Americans are very close to paying up for the sins of their greedy past in which they drank the kool aid of "something for nothing".

    Always remember, while it may be true that nature abhors a vacuum, it equally abhors ANYTHING being out of balance, and nature will always, at some point, and often catastrophically, bring anything that is out of balance back to balance. This truth is equally true of economies. America has broken every rule of nature in the way it has handled it's economy since the day social security was invented in violation of natures laws, and America is about to get leveled.
     
  9. R.Kipling

    R.Kipling Well-Known Member

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    Trappy,

    I'm glad to see that you're trying to think. However, your theory breaks down early when you identify your premise's as "facts". Try inserting these premises into your thinking.

    1. The economy has not gotten stronger, just larger.

    2. While the rich have gotten richer, the fiat money that has been over circulated, which is the single largest reason for the decline in the middle class, is also being distributed among a population 3 times larger than the one of 1971 (the year we abandoned the Gold Standard).

    3. The dominant fact in the change of classes is that you are living in a Kleptocracy. Government now sucks up 52% of every dollar you are paid. Some estimates are even larger that that, depending upon which state you live in and the origin of your purchases.

    4. Your nation's wealth continues to be siphoned off and redistributed, not from the rich, they own the banks and exempt themselves from the laws. But, from the middle class. And, your Messiah has now seen to it that he is first in line.

    5. Ask yourself this question. If so many of these rich Democrats are so apposed to the current tax codes, why aren't they already voluntarily paying their personal taxes based upon what they 'fell' is appropriate? Check out the richest in congress, and then ask them to be real leaders and pay up.
    Zero and Nancy are both richer by 10's of millions this year. Your college elites are filling their pockets with state and federal aid of all types, while you go broke being fed swill that is purposefully intended to distract you from their own brand of theft.

    6. There will always be rich and poor, what we desperately need more of is principled knowledgeable types. Liberals intentionally destroy and muddle principles and morals because those two things are the foundation of true knowledge.

    Investigate for yourself, stop getting your news spoon-fed from the Comedy Channel and Algore.

    Kip
     
  10. Barrelbulge(Fl)

    Barrelbulge(Fl) Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    And where does greed come in? The middle class is losing more and more through inflation, corporate greed, and other factors. Again I say America is becoming a two class society. Corporate execs. salaries(packages) have grown at an increasing rate while the normal worker gets a minimum raise in his income. Don't get me wrong I am not saying a hard working person should not get ahead but there is a little more room for the little guy. Bulge.
     
  11. RobertT

    RobertT Well-Known Member

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    Obama is scared to death that his check book and charge cards will be taken from him. His whole agenda is geared toward further dismantling of the middle class.

    Robert
     
  12. John Galt

    John Galt TS Member

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    Surprised to see that nobody mentioned that the "rich" who some ill informed think pay no taxes, in fact pay nearly all of them while 47% pay nothing and all but 7% of those actually make an income tax profit.

    The facts are available to whoever wants to look: the top 1% of taxpayers pay 38% of income taxes, the top 5% pay 59% and the top 10% pay 70%. The facts say that all the bullcrap about the rich not paying their share is just that. The deadbeats are the 47% who whine about the rich while not paying anything at all. People like trappy and his ilk.

    Let's say we do like the trappyies of the world really want and tax the rich at 100%. Once they are impoverished, just who will be left to pay the taxes? Don't look to the deadbeat 47% whiners.
     
  13. billyboy07208

    billyboy07208 Member

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    The top 1 percent is making an insane amount of money compared to the 250k bracket.These are people in the tens of millions.
    The 1% who own nearly all of the nations wealth.
     
  14. Robert Long

    Robert Long Member

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    Trappy really likes cool aid. This is nothing new from him. I wish i could be around when he gets it. He is a smart brainwashed kid.
     
  15. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Corporate jets - Obama is the biggest offender. It costs taypayers millions every time he decides to fly to where ever just to plant a tree or campaign. His wife's trip to Europe. You want in your face, I am rich and I will flaunt it. The best examples are your leader Obama and wife.

    Trappy it looks like college has not helped or changed your thinking, you do need to study more on your economic factors. Can I assume you are going to school so you can also join the economic elite or are you going to dedicate your life to helping the misfortunate who live on the government dole??

    Bulge - are you now showing your true beliefs?? Are you now claiming to be one of the down trodden. A victim of those corporate execs??

    Celebs - How come no one mentions those who do little but get paid hugely?? I inclued all professional sports figures, actors, music or non-music. When you pay a basketball player more than a surgeon, something is wrong. Who wears all their sports items?? The so called down trodden. Who buys all the music?? The so called down trodden.

    Executives - But because a person runs a major corporation or any corporation, works 10 to 15 hours a day, usually has a heart condition by the time he is in his 50's, provides employment for how ever many people. They get paid well yes. But in to many eyes they are evil and must be brought to their economic kness because of their success. The fact that the more successful they are the more jobs that are provided by their companies. The success of a major company also means the success of many medium and small comapanies who supply the larger.

    When one studies economics you should study all phases of economics not just those parts that support your political position.

    Don
     
  16. Fast Oil

    Fast Oil TS Member

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    "Speaking for himself on July 11, the president offered that he had 'hundreds of thousands of dollars that I don't need.' The president is of course welcome to donate as much of his extra money as he likes to the federal treasury. He knows Timothy Geithner personally and can probably get a guarantee that his check will be cashed without delay. And since the president is so ready to impute unpleasant motives (like greed) to those who oppose tax increases, perhaps we should impute some sort of moral failing to him for not having thus far contributed his spare change to the government." --columnist Mona Charen
     
  17. Barrelbulge(Fl)

    Barrelbulge(Fl) Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    BIGDON, see my private message. Bulge.
     
  18. shannon391

    shannon391 Active Member

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    They could tax them all 75% and it would not even come close to bring enough revenue to keep up with Obongos spending.

    Less spending, not where can we find more!
     
  19. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    Someone mentioned all the millionaires on the gulf coast from Florida to Texas, this might be one of them that payed no tax's. Your middle class tax's that pay for this business owners offspring, now times this by tens of thousands and add it up what the middle class has to pay.
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Trappy12

    Trappy12 Active Member

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    Bigdon, I'm studying economics and political science if that helps you out.
    None of this is about the top income people having way more than the rest of Americans and that is unfair. Most of the people who make that kind of money have worked very hard to get where they are and they deserve a lot of what they have. As someone said though, there needs to be more room for the little guy to be able to become the big guy. Without a strong middle class you can forget about that, and what was also said, America will continue moving more and more towards a two-class society.
    -Trappy
     
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