1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Follow up to the Kiner clinic

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by joe kuhn, Oct 10, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,128
    Location:
    Naperville, IL
    I've been shooting ok after the Kiner clinic, dealing with my cross firing and struggling to get to the range. Picked up an eye patch late last week and started wearing it at home as Phil recommended for 1/2 hour a day. Didn't get a straight for a while, but then started to see them come back. Chalked it up to the clinic blues where you actually shoot worse scores at first and then work to get your mental game back and begin to include any corrections you can to move into a higher plateau of scores. It takes a while.

    I've worked on and off with the eye exercise where I close my left eye until it's my turn to shoot, then open it to shoot. That seems to be the most helpful. Saturday I shot a poor opening round and closed with a 24, 25, 24. Scope seems to be holding on the Kuhner so everything seemed ok.

    Then it fell apart completely at the local ATA Trapshooting Day with an 85/100. There seemed to be nothing I could do to help. Up the motivation and get some hot breaks only to fall back with a miss at the next station. I was loosing right handers as well as lefties and even a straight away. Didn't seem to matter. Totally frustrating.

    Then I took a break and went back. Put some tape over my left lens and hated it because I couldn't see the results with the target when the gun would move up from the recoil. Actually that was interesting because I didn't know I used my left eye that much to pick up information about the break. Hm, left eye to see the results, but I'm supposed to use my right eye up to that point. Not good but what can be done about it? Maybe try a Space Gun. Had taped across the lens from left to right with black hockey stick tape. Will try a vertical piece to cover the bbl on the Kuhner as a last effort with the tape.

    At one point the wind blew leaves over the field and that got me real focused 'out there'. Had a couple of nice breaks. Another time I got super motivated and got 'deep smoke' which is when you put the whole pattern on the target and get a nice dark, or in our case, white cloud (we throw bio degradable targets).

    In the end I tried to shoot my way out of it and broke a 23 for the top score of the day. If you haven't experienced cross firing, leave this thread and don't come back to the topic until it starts happening to you. It'll feel a little weird like something is a bit wrong in what you just saw with that miss, but you were on it, mostly.

    I'm fighting a black robed ninja in the dark. Have got to find a way to turn the light on. Conclusion: the Kuhner worked for a good 6 months. Phase 2...

    Later,

    Joe
     
  2. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,475
    Location:
    Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania
    Joe, I hate to throw cold water on your parage but I don't think you're going to beat that demon until you give in and close that left eye like all the rest of us who suffer with cross-dominance. Using tape, you are in effect already doing that anyway, right?

    You might even find that, like me, tape will work great for a while. I shot a lot of good scores with both eyes open and the left lens taped but a little over a year ago, my scores started to go downhill. Staying in the 20s on a 16-yard trap was a challenge. I had Phil in for a weekend of clinics and took it myself for the umpteenth time but nothing changed. Then while experiencing a lot of "mystery misses" while shooting practice, I started closing my left eye. My scores went up and my breaks improved immediately!

    I figure if I was able to break two 200s 10 years ago with my eye closed, it can't be all bad. Your last sentence is a perfect description of how cross-dominance feels!

    Ed
     
  3. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,128
    Location:
    Naperville, IL
    Ed,

    Do you mean this sentence: It'll feel a little weird like something is a bit wrong in what you just saw with that miss, but you were on it, mostly.

    I appreciate the feedback Ed. Have you studied brain/eye interactions to see what a more scientific approach might say?

    I need to have my eyes checked again and will discuss it with my eye doc. He's a rifle shooter.

    I'm particularly interested in the possibility that hormones are involved with age. It's all down hill as you know.

    Joe
     
  4. dverna

    dverna Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,717
    This may be a little off the wall.

    If you are crossing with the lens blocked, it would indicate your brain has been "trained" to interpret what your right eye is seeing, and to use an imprinted image of what your left eye would see to make the shot. If this is correct, every attempt to shoot with both eyes open reinforces in your minds eye the cross-firing sight picture.

    If this is what is happening, you will need to retrain your brain. IMMEDIATELY stop all attempts at keeping both eyes open - even with a patch. Shoot with the right eye closed. It may take months, ---- who knows???? Your brain still has the imprinted image but with the eye totally shut it may have less tendency to "reference" it.

    I suspect a new shooter who is cross eye dominate, but starts with a patch, does not develop the "affliction" you have as their only reference is the right eye.

    Joe, I believe this is starting to happen to me when I am tired or under stress (not the stress of competition but "life" stresses) . I get the occasional miss when I am sure the holographic sight is on the target. One of the reasons I tried the sight was these unexplained misses - but with the EoTech I KNOW the sight picture so it is not a mis-pointed bird. I use a full choke so I am sure there are no holes in the pattern.

    This weekend I did not shoot the EoTech gun as I was shooting league and performed much better. I am still shooting two eyed - for now.

    Don Verna
     
  5. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    4,353
    Location:
    Prairie State
    Joe... while no one wants to admit defeat, isn't the ultimate vindication to beating/solving a problem, success?! ... maybe Ed has it right.

    Why not apply a solution-based "Occam's Razor"..., paraphrasing (possibly incorrectly)... that the simpliest solution may be the best solution...

    Best regards,

    Jay
     
  6. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,128
    Location:
    Naperville, IL
    Jay - Because I loose the feed back of "smoke or pieces" with a patch when the gun comes up from the recoil - the joy is sucked right out of it, I can't see my results and will start pulling off to see what happened, I can feel the urge already.

    Don - I didn't cross fire with the patch as long as I stayed 'behind' my glasses and didn't look over the patch and cheat. Heh.

    Do this experiment: Look at a dot with your left eye closed, then open it and close the other eye. Go back and forth so that only one eye is open at a time.

    What do you see? Describe it.
     
  7. dverna

    dverna Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,717
    Joe,

    I tired your "test" - all I saw was an image shift - nothing more.

    If seeing the target break is your main reason to use your "off" eye you have two choices. Shoot without the feedback or get a gun that does not kick as much as an 870.

    Too bad you are so far away. I am sure you cold see the target break with this setup using just your right eye. Recoil does not take the target out of the sight.

    Don Verna


    dverna_2008_030316.jpg
     
  8. MKillian

    MKillian TS Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    260
    I agree with Don; if you want to see the target break without lifting your head you need either a gun that shoots higher or one that doesn't cover the break with muzzle jump.

    I found out that dots and plastic tape don't work for me; that black cloth hockey tape is just like closing my left eye without closing my left eye. It seems that it's the light coming into my left eye and not the images that need to be blocked out. After a few minutes I actually forget that I'm using only 1 eye.

    Odd part about it all is that I can shoot rifles and pistols with both eyes open and have no problem with either open sights or scopes. Only with shotguns do I crossfire.

    Mike K
     
  9. butcher

    butcher Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Messages:
    558
    Like Ed said why not easily eliminate the problem by closing your left eye? Some very good shooters shoot with only one open (Nora Ross being one of them)
    Taking one of her clinics might be beneficial to you as evryone thinks she is also a very good instructer.
     
  10. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,722
    Dverna is that a sniper shotgun, it looks serious.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  11. dverna

    dverna Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,717
    Gary,

    It is a test bed to evaluate the "aiming" of a shotgun and to determine why I seem to miss birds that I think are properly "pointed". It is a standard k-80 receiver (release trigger - note: a sniper would never use a release - LOL). It has an old style O/U barrel. The sight is attached via a modified B-Square rib mount that is attached with epoxy "fillers" between the rib vents so the clamping hardware does not move. So far, rock solid after about 500 rounds.

    It is easier to use than it looks. I am not shooting it as well as my "normal" TS. More testing planned.

    Don Verna
     
  12. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2009
    Messages:
    2,645
    Your brain does put together the information from both eyes to form one image, so if you just block one eye it seems natural the brain will still try to gather info from the blocked eye especially when you are seeing something you have seen so many times before.

    It makes sense to me that with the off eye closed the brain would not try to process any information from that side.

    I don't think you are giving up that much by shooting trap one eyed, it's not like we have surprise presentations, we can't predict which presentation we will get but it will be one we've seen and broken before if you have shot long enough.

    In my case the biggest thing I have to fight shooting with one eye closed is the temptation to aim, it's like my brain goes into rifle or pistol shooting mode and wants to aim the bead. I'm not always aware of the aiming but I become a little jerky and not as smooth. If I can keep that in check I shoot just as well one eyed, not to say great but A level anyway. I wonder if the thinking that one eyed shooters should hold low and use lower POI may need to be challenged by someone willing to put in the time?
     
  13. warren

    warren Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    948
    Location:
    Fernley, Nevada
    I figure it took me several years to get into my crossfiring problem and it's gonna take me some time to get out of it, I've had success with the eye patch wearing at nite. I have some good days and then I'll fall back but after almost a year I'm having more good days than bad. At least I know what the problem is that's more thatn half the battle.

    warren
     
  14. Kemper

    Kemper Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,003
    joe, listen to Phil.

    barry kemper
     
  15. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,128
    Location:
    Naperville, IL
    I hear what you guys are saying about the patch & one eye shooting. I want you to know I hear you, I'm just not there yet. It's a patch. I'd like to take this on as a challenge and do better than a patch.

    Phil said to cover my eye at home for a half hour per day and close my eye on the range until it's my turn to shoot. Will do these as much as I can. Will also keep looking for my own answer.

    When I alternately close one eye and then the other I see a left/right shift AND A VERTICAL SHIFT AS WELL. I didn't expect the vertical shift at all. It's there, at least for me. Here's what happens:

    1. Look at one of the targets in the background for ts.com. Close your left eye.

    2. Now close your right eye and open your left. The target moves to the right and raises up for me. It raises up! I didn't expect that.

    3. Now alternate back and forth. My target goes low left, up right, low left, up right as I go back and forth. I didn't expect any vertical change. I expected left-right movement and that is all. Why is this happening? Apparently Don and I are different.

    Next experiment:

    Go from a two eyed stare to a one eyed stare. Use the same ts.com background target. Alternate eyes. Two eyes, left eye. Two eyes, right eye. Nothing seems to change for me when I close either eye. Since I'm right eye dominant I expected the target to jump when I closed my right eye. It doesn't. My brain seems to adjust just fine to either eye after a two eyed stare. Isn't this why we cross fire so readily and why eye dominance doesn't figure in?

    So how do we stop it?

    Thanks,
    Joe
     
  16. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    Joe, quit tilting your head!

    Hap
     
  17. ccw1911

    ccw1911 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    816
    This lucky guy may be the answer.

    Mr-Bean-Cyclops--34565.jpg
     
  18. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,128
    Location:
    Naperville, IL
    Hapster, I'm not tilting my head. Honest. It's my eyes. If I tilt my head to the right, then the target shifts left/right only. And I have to tilt it a lot. Not good.

    ccw1911 (Ross) - Too freaky Halloween mask! No candy for you.

    Based on the two eye to one eye experiment I went out and pointed targets with the eye I intend to break targets with. Nothing fancy, nothing slick, just plain old practice. I was on my bike and pointed wheel centers from across the street with traffic going my direction. Stopped at the corner of a busy street and finished off my 100 targets in no time. Don't like the idea of doing this in public, then find something else.

    Maybe that's all it will take. "Brain, here's how we're going to shoot targets; with the right eye. Here we go...Right eye, again, again, again... Any questions? Want to use the other eye. No. Right eye only. Left eye will result in a loss. Here, practice some more. Right eye... Got it. Yeah, we're going to use the right eye because the left eye doesn't work. Remember, right eye. Tomorrow we're going to have a test. Here's a preview: Which eye is used to shoot targets?"

    I had a worth while practice session with both eyes open.
     
  19. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,475
    Location:
    Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania
    Joe, the thought I was referring to is your ninja reference.

    A lot of peoples' cross-dominance is intermittant. I can pass that eye dominance test 99% of the time but after I shoot 25 or 50 targets and my eyes tire a little, I can't always pass it.

    If your gun recoils so much that you lose sight of the target, that's causing you to absorb a lot more punishment than you should have to. Who knows - it might even be contributing to your eye problem. I own two 870TCs and neither one kicks NEAR that hard. I wouldn't shoot a gun that did.

    I really think you owe it to yourself to shoot a normal (read: with a rib and beads) trap gun with your left (I think I recall from your photos that you're right-handed) eye closed for a month. I'm willing to bet that how 99.9% of the cross-dominant folks have shot for a century or more will work for you, too.

    Keep at it!

    Ed
     
  20. MKillian

    MKillian TS Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    260
    Joe, I think I discovered part of your problem.

    The image in the background of this page isn't targets; it's a shooter! (OK. little tiny target)<center>
    [​IMG]
    </center>

    Mike K
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.