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FLINCHING !! HELP

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by jim brown, Oct 15, 2009.

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  1. jim brown

    jim brown Well-Known Member

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    A light trigger will make your flinch worse.

    Jim brown
     
  2. Beretta687EELL

    Beretta687EELL Well-Known Member

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    There are two types of flinches. The most noted is a cumulative recoil flinch, which usually requires a release trigger. Since you are a new shooter, I suspect, your flinch is what many refer to as a visual flinch. This means you are not seeing the target as your brain expects. I suspect that you are not seeing the target clearly on those occasions when you flinch. Bill Malcolm
     
  3. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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    R-E-L-E-A-S-E!
     
  4. philk

    philk Member

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    7 lbs, wow, and some guys thought Cynergy`s had heavy triggers.
     
  5. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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    Can anyone please post their personal successes in getting rid of their flinch problem without going to a release trigger? or have "cured" themselves of the release and gone back from the release to the pull....without an occaisonal flinch?
     
  6. 221

    221 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Use a Dryfire.

    Practice by dry fireing your Firearm.

    Shoot a bench rifle with a 1oz trigger.

    Practice , Practice, Practice........Don't expect your flinch to just go away....It's a bad habit that takes work to overcome....

    Or you can take the easy way out and try tricks and use releases to mask it.
     
  7. Beretta Young Gun

    Beretta Young Gun Active Member

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    i had a problem of flinching a few weeks ago. in a single 25 bird practice round i would flinch about 6 times. I had my dad stand behind me and watch wat I was doing to see if he could tell what i was doing wrong. after about an hour of shooting practice targets he told me to easy up on my grip on the forend. even though the gun i was shooting didnt recoil that much I had a death grip on the forend. I shot the next pratice round with my left hand completly flat with the gun resting in the middle. the next round i didnt flinch once. Im not sure what this did to help me but i havent flinched since. hope i could help. BYG
     
  8. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Topdog. My "flinch" was and continuews to be a "cross-fire". I am a right eye/handed shootier and as the bird emerges fro the house my left eye takes over and I move the gun to the left of the target.And then just before I release the trigger my dominant right eye takes over and I jerk the gun to the right to catch up with the line of flight. And when I do not get there it appears to be a flinch. But it is cross-fire. If you ahve someone around that appears to know about crossfires, he or she can observe you doing this. If that is what you have, you are on your own to solve it.
     
  9. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Sarge has a good point about gun position. Try holding on top and in the middle of the trap house for each post. You will have a longer smoother swing through the target. Wayne
     
  10. DTrykow

    DTrykow Active Member

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    My flinch is visual. It actually started when I joined a local night league.
    It has continued but I'm working thru it. I find if I don't focus on the bird and lose sight of it, I flinch. I shot 50 straight on Sunday with no flinching. I got into a bad habit of bead checking as I'm swinging. I've simplifed my shooting procedure: I mount the gun and call for the bird always looking out in the field. The hell with the barrel and beads. I only look at the beads after the shot to see if I'm canting the gun. jimbrown is right; I lightened my trigger to 3.5lbs and I still flinch. 221 - "BE NICE" LOL Dave T.
     
  11. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

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    after 39 years of shooting i developed a flinch. nothing i did seemed to help, so i purchased a release trigger. although that did allow me to shot well again, i was never really happy shooting a release. one day a friend of mine said try putting your trigger finger closer to the trigger. i had purchased a new gun and the pistol gripe was cut back more than my regular gun. so i added some velcro to the pistol gripe and wrapped it with some elctrical tape. in the past 3,000 targets, i have not had one flinch.
    steve balistreri
     
  12. philk

    philk Member

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    When I think I`m starting to flinch, I go out to the rifle range with one of the Kimber 22`s and just start shooting pop cans. The flinch is very obvious and I just shoot and force myself to hold steady. That dry fire deal looks interesting to. What has been more troubling to me lately is more of a "balk", where I think you don`t want to miss the target so bad that your brain says to your trigger finger "if you don`t shoot at it you wont miss it" kind of thing.
     
  13. mkstephen

    mkstephen Active Member

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    When you shoot a rifle or a pistol for accuracy you squeeze the trigger until the gun goes off. Because you are shooting at a stationary target this works fine.


    When shooting a trap gun at a moving clay target you need to slap the trigger. Flinches do occur to recoil when you have shot thousands of targets or killer games with huge shells.


    95% of shooters that had to go to a release trigger did so because they were trigger squeezers.


    There are shooters who need release triggers and there are shooters who believe that you don't have a trap gun unless it has a release trigger.


    What I mean by slapping the trigger is with your finger very lightly on the trigger when you call for the bird when your mind says now don't squeeze - slap.


    If you squeeze the trigger the squeeze and let off become part of your timing. You go for a target and start squeezing - your mind says “now - no not now - YES SHOOT and because you are not on the target your minds says I'm out of here I'm not shooting if I am not on the target” and you finch or blow a hole in the sky.


    Your sub-conscious mind can break every target that gets thrown if you slap the trigger. Sure in the beginning you will miss targets when getting use to slapping the trigger but you are doing exactly what your sub-conscious mind needs in order to adjust. After a shot your sub-conscious mind might say "Hey we shot behind that right target - the next time I'll get farther in front of it." Squeezing the trigger never allows this to happen because of the excess trigger timing.


    Think about it for a moment; a release trigger lets off immediately there is no excess movement. A release trigger does exactly what a 'pull trigger' shooter does when he slaps the trigger.


    This does not mean that sometime in your future you may need to go to a release trigger. After thousands of rounds flinching can occur because of recoil.


    Michael Stephenson
     
  14. 221

    221 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    philik.....you are understanding this better than you think......flinching comes from abuse accompanied with poor shooting technique. trapshooters, even some successful ones will not accept that, your brain is talking to you and if you cannot pull the trigger it's telling you you were gonna waste that shot. It's really a lot simpler than some want you to believe.

    THE shot function has to be left to the same thing that allows you to walk and talk........You..... meaning your conscious mind cannot control a trigger, trigger pull must be as someone else is doing it.......By the time you consciously tell your brain your ready and manually slap a trigger that target is gone. If you do that your just poking at it

    Try shooting a pistol in the wind, where your minimum movement is edge to edge or side to side of the target. If you think you can slap your trigger when you want you will miss the paper. If you ever have to do that you will immediately realize just who is pulling the trigger.


    You cannot have proper swing, track and follow through and pull a trigger correctly, if your calling in all manually.....NO HUMAN CAN DO IT......Yet good shooters claim you can.....their wrong.

    If you did not learn proper English.... you could be a redneck....(joke)

    If you do not learn to control a trigger......you WILL flinch.

    "BE NICE"
     
  15. Mr. Professional

    Mr. Professional TS Member

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    Slap the trigger, when you call for the bird have the front of your finger on the trigger guard, then just slap it when your sight picture looks good. try some practice with this... its an old timers trick but it works for me.
     
  16. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    Here is a post from another thread a few weeks ago.

    "It just so happens that I got the following note late last week from a friend that he received from one of his friends. I did a couple of minor edits to protect their identities but the rest is presented as written. It's got nothing to do with flinching but it sure makes a strong case about release triggers.

    "Hey XXXXXXX,

    As you know, I took up Trapshooting a little more than 4 years ago using an old model 12 trap gun that was loaned to me by a friend. However, after I had demonstrated a commitment to the game, my father in law sent me an over/under. By chance, it had both release and pull dropout triggers. While I knew nothing about release triggers and had never flinched, I thought why not give it a try. One of the guys at the club where I shoot showed me how to use it. Bingo. Within a couple of rounds I was shooting better than I had ever shot before. I soon gave ATA a try. I liked it and within XX months I was shooting AA/27.

    I have watched the arguments about release triggers on TS.com for quite a while. I never felt qualified to jump in and participate because most of these arguments referred to flinching rather than just whether a release trigger is a better method of firing a trap gun. Because I had never had a problem with flinching, I do not understand anything about that problem. However, here is where it gets interesting. I have a very unique job. I am a team coordinator/referee/slave driver/mother hen for a team of exceptionally educated, experienced professionals representing a variety of engineering, medical, psychological and research disciplines. Our business is rocket science and brain surgery so to speak.

    We are all employed by a major aerospace firm and while some of what we do is highly classified, most of it is of a standard commercial nature. What we do is provide independent testing for human interface control systems to determine if those controls are designed in such a manner as to eliminate as much probability of human error as possible. Simply put, this might just be whether it is better for a two way toggle switch to have up as off and down as on or vice versa. However, think of the control array in a 737 cockpit, the space shuttle or a nuclear power plant and that is what people pay us a lot of money to test. We usually have about 10 people on a team and we bill at $8000-$10,000 per hour.

    About once a quarter we try to get the team out of the labs and into a more natural setting. I decided that a day at my trap club might be a lot of fun. I recruited a friend to help me with getting the guys to the line and shooting, and hopefully, hitting some targets. We had four trap guns, three with pull triggers and mine with the release. I was surprised at how easily some of the guys took to shooting the release. Afterwards, as we were sitting around enjoying chili dogs, the guys who used the release trigger started asking questions as to why my gun had a release and the other guns had pulled triggers. I gave the standard overview concerning flinching. However, these guys immediately were interested in whether a release trigger is a better human control interface for firing a trap gun. Much discussion ensued and everyone had a great time bringing their particular discipline to bear, but being research scientists no one would accept a resolution without specific testing.

    A couple of weeks later, we had cleared the decks for a large contract concerning a fire control system for a shipboard missile defense system. The package was to arrive on the appointed morning and we had completed constructing our testing protocols. However, as I was conducting what I thought was the final check list meeting, we were notified that their might be a delay in delivery. Somehow the conversation flowed back to the outing at the trap club and then the discussion about release triggers. About that time, we were notified that delivery would be delayed at least 24 hours. So here is all this high-priced talent with nothing to do so someone suggested why not apply our talents to a release trigger review. Needless to say, numerous bets were quickly made. Having previously received security clearance to bring my trap gun into the employee parking lot, I happened to have my gun in my trunk. A quick call to security and I and my trap gun were being escorted into the lab.

    Soon, we had several volunteers with wires attached from their trigger fingers, up their arms, on their spinal column and all over their heads. Others were studying the mechanical forces required and exerted by the two different triggers. Data was collected in the number crunching began. After a bit over five hours of research we had our answer.

    Our typical project results in a document that runs from 20 pages for something very simple to several hundred pages for multiple function control arrays. However, while these reports are very helpful for the design and manufacturing teams, we have devised a simple ratio to present so that non-technical management people can quickly appreciate the value propositions of one system versus another. To do this we assign the least desirable functionality a value of one. We then assign the better functionality a value of plus one. By example, if we have found that the up is the worst position for "on" for the toggle switch then we might say that having "off" is a 1.14 better choice. We call this the better alternative ratio.

    Because most of the products/systems that we test our very well designed with a lot of previous knowledge applied, our alternative ratio is usually fairly low. In fact, previously the highest alternative ratio that we have estimated for a manual control was a 2.67. Now, drumroll, the release trigger came back with a better alternative ratio compared to the pull trigger of 3.27 based upon a projected 100 repetitions in a 45 minute time frame. Quite frankly I was shocked at how big the difference was. Even though I had seen my shooting improve after getting the gun with the release trigger, there were lots of other variables that I am sure contributed to that progress

    In summary, we produced a result that someone would have had to pay us about $45,000 to achieve. While I can't add anything to the discussion about flinching, I think I can categorically state that a release trigger provides a substantial biomechanical superiority to a pull trigger for shooting a trap gun.

    Of course, we all know that many of the best trapshooters successfully use pull triggers and achieve 99% plus results. We also know that the majority of release trigger users will never achieve 99% plus results. However, if I were going to train 100 qualified candidates that can fly fighter jets to shoot trap, every one of them would have a gun with a release trigger."
     
  17. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    JT, the guy doing all that research says neither JH or LH would be chosen to fly a jet? Both are sharp enough with training to accomplish that task in my view!! I haven't shot LH's gun but I have shot JH's guns several times. I can guarantee you JH's pull triggers don't feel anything at all close to the three in that test! I'm sure LH triggers are of the same quality as JH's also. Drew Waller also shoots both types of trigger systems well too.

    An O/Us pull triggers for the sake of safety has to be set close to 3 pounds on one and 3-1/4 on the other, give or take a few ounces. The commonly favored setting for a release trigger is about 56 ounces for setting and 32 ounces of (pressure) to release. That's about half the weight of decent pull trigger's. It's far easier to have a good release system than a decent pull trigger system built into an O/U shotgun for the reasons I wrote above. I shoot both types and score well with either but my pull triggers are excellent triggers reworked by Giacomo several times till they were right for me! My single barrel trap gun pull trigger is set at 22 ounces and has been for nearly 30 years.

    Hap
     
  18. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    Hap,

    What he said is if he was going to teach pilots to shoot trap, he would have them use release triggers because they are a superior user interface to fire a trapgun. It doesn't say anything about teaching trapshooters to fly jets, though I will have to admit the concept of getting most of us trapshooters to fit into a jet fighter cockpit requires a great deal of imagination.

    I don't know anything about this ergonomic type stuff. However, evidently these guys test layouts and controls so that they can be constructed to eliminate as much human error as possible and make them easy to use.

    I'm just passing the info along, because these guys obviously know what they're doing about this kind of stuff.
     
  19. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I merely pointed out a release isn't totally necessary for all shooters, especially those knowing what a good pull trigger should be. Big Leo might be offended by your remarks about fitting into the cockpit, they make big jets don't they? :) It seems to me that good pull triggers are a secret in trapshooting for most. Hap
     
  20. 221

    221 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Follow thru is the same way, a person cannot just move and have follow thru. Your onboard computer is the only control authorized to perform those functions properly. Follow thru and trigger pull can not be manipulated!!!

    These things I've said are why to some....... trap is child's play.... and to those of us that think we actually control our body movements..... have troubles with it.
     
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