1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

'Fixing' HCP (if it's even broke) won't help ATA

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by goatskin, Aug 23, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,781


    solve Recruitment/Retention issues.

    ARA's problems are more pervasive: 'Benchrest Trap' is an 'old' sport, catering to (and supported by) old men; it is very time-consuming - taking approximately forever to shoot a 3-game match - is every-so-'clubby' and elitist and very, very expensive.

    The petulant, spoiled, backward-looking titty-baby whiners, cryers and Vandalia-moaners of Ohio & PA are both symptom & symbol of what the ATA is, and isn't, but are also a symbol of what ATA has to do to grow and prosper in a new and less-familiar world.

    I don't think ARA has a (sub-)committee envisioning what the ATA <i>SHOULD</i> look like in 5, 10, +years. But they should: Big 50 is a start, but only a start in that direction.

    No matter how fun and 'remembered' the myth is of some casual league shooter with a field-model 870 having 'his Golden day' and making Kiner, Campbell, Leo, Dave, Kay bow down in front of him - those days are long gone, if they ever were.

    Personally, for several different reasons (environmental among them), I think 1oz (7/8th preferably) and velocity limitations is the place to start. New, faster games where perfection is not the default need to be invented ... AND tracked & 'Granded' by ATA, else why bother?

    The perception among entering trap shooters is - and is NOT completely inaccurate - if all you can afford to shoot is an SKB, perfection is impossible, so why bother?

    The ATA spends too much time looking in the rear-view mirror, trying to gain more OH & PA shooters to register more birds ... and it needs to think a little more abt what the ATA will look like as 'The Base' quits shooting and/or dies.

    Just some thoughts & musings while I have been re-reading all the post-grand tub-thumpings.

    Bob
     
  2. J.Woolsey

    J.Woolsey Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    930
    Bob, I know of a 100 straight being shot with a SKB TSS just last week here in NC. I believe the guy can afford whatever he wants to shoot (had a Perazzi in the truck as backup). It's still the Indian not the arrow. J.W.
     
  3. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,781
    Of course, JW, that's true in all shooting disciplines, but trap guns are rather more specialised, and 'impression' counts when you are trying to connect with new shooters (or convert them from other games).

    The very best score I ever shot was with an H&R trap-gun a friend bought for his daughter, and the second-best was with with a 3rd rate Eibar SxS that had the forend duct-taped ... but I'm an old fart and don't care abt scores or funny looks.

    I do care about organised, institutional shooting, however.


    Bob
     
  4. trapp2012

    trapp2012 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    142
    7/8 once shot rule is stupid there is no way to monitor it.
     
  5. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,781
    Just how disadvantaged do you think you'll be shooting N119s, anyhow?

    Besides, you don't have to monitor it.

    Trap is a gentleman's game, and if the rule is properly announced, well written (with challenge & testing provisions, of course) and explained, it will be adopted and adhered-to.

    With the usual complaining, of course.

    The power of name & shame is pretty strong and it is a (proper) core emotional issue.

    Why are people so excised abt sandbaggers? "Dammit, *EYE* am trying to shoot my best and got a yard last week for the best round I ever shot, and Snigglfritzen runs 98's two counties over 5 days a week and is D class b/c he can't hit his hat ... until some idiots have played the purses."


    Bob
     
  6. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    889
    Decreasing payloads is about as asinine as the 3 hole debate. Make it harder on the average shooter and no difference to the better shooters. Cream will rise to the top, always. Hell, one of the big dogs (Dysinger?) ran the CTC (couple of times, maybe?) with a 20 gauge. Yep, going to 7/8 oz load will make a HUGE difference (sarcasm). Hell, I shoot 1 oz on singles and doubles already and averaged 98.77 and 97.80 respectively and I am no where near a big dog. I shoot 7 1/2, 2 3/4, 1 1/8 on handicap from the 27 yard line and averaged 93.16. I can't imagine going to 1 oz or 7/8 oz would decrease that average that much.

    The only way to "fix" the problem (and I agree with you, this probably will not really fix everything -- there are too many reasons why trapshooting is declining right now to be fixed by any one thing) is to A) Make a professional class or B) increase yardage on handicap just to the point of where the shotgun become ineffective.

    Yardage has been added to this game not once, but twice, as technology has evolved. Why not do it again? I have proposed for a while now doing a 30 yard experiment for just the bigger shoots (Grands, Sat Grands, maybe zone?) where one to two banks are extended to the 30 yard line. If you earn yardage from the 27 and show up where a shoot has a 30 yardline, you start moving back. Case in point, if you take myself. 27 yard line at beginning of year. Earned one yard before my zone shoot, so I would shoot from the 28 there. At the zone got another 1/2 yard. Would enter the Grand then at 28.5. Put it on the shooter's shoulders to practice a little farther back in anticipation of going to one of these shoots. Would not cost a whole lot of money to pour another 120 yards of concrete (8 traps x 3 yards x 5 posts) and would do away with all of the other mess. Try it for a year or two to see if it evens things out. If not, go back to the drawing board.

    In the end, a professional class would "solve" a lot of the aforementioned problems. Now, how do we define professional?
     
  7. crusha

    crusha TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,762
    I'm sure the "ARA" will listen to your musings with rapt attention..."Bob."
     
  8. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,781
    buzz: .... :) .... bad fingers ... I'll leave that unedited out, however.

    Have you something constructive or thoughtful to add, or just merely gratuitous?

    Bob
     
  9. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,781
    <i>I'm sure the "ARA" will listen to your musings with rapt attention...</i>

    I doubt it. Nor ATA officialdom, neither. I doubt they pay much attention to TS.com, or any other electronic board, neither.

    The path to the EC is well-trod by the usual suspects coming from the usual backgrounds, all of whom got (and stay) where they are by being ... 'usual'.

    NSSA is pretty-much the same ... and, like the ATA, bailing 5gal of water with a quart jar.

    I think both groups would profit from reading both ~Bowling Alone~ and the fictitious Gordon Geckko's speech about the last buggy whip manufacturer.


    Bob
     
  10. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,781
    jevolia: <i>...The only way to "fix" the problem (and I agree with you, this probably will not really fix everything -- there are too many reasons why trapshooting is declining right now to be fixed by any one thing) is to A) Make a professional class or B) increase yardage on handicap just to the point of where the shotgun become ineffective. ...</i>

    Oh, there are other ways - within ATA's power now - to 'fix' HCP problems: many of which are like eating the seed corn. Make reductions mandatory is one way, but that would result in fewer registered targets rather than more.

    Winston is right, people like to shoot big scores. They don't WANT hard targets. They want fat, slow, gently-angled ones.

    And yeah, distance matters. I've shot boxbirds, and 32-33-35yds makes the cold-sweat beads freeze instantly and quicker.

    I'd like to see more concrete: not going to happen - easily - tho.

    Bob
     
  11. Hauser

    Hauser Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    860
    Increasing the handicap distance, assuming the increase is long enough, will fix all the current problems with the current handicap system.


    What I don’t understand is how a test case, such as extending the 8 traps at the Grand, would be administered and why it needs to be done at all. Everyone knows increasing the distance reduces the effectiveness of a shotgun, so there is no need to prove the obvious.


    The problem is how the system would work if all clubs holding ATA shoots don’t extend some of their trap fields to accommodate the change.


    For example if the distance was increased to 30 yards what would be the rule governing a 30 yard shooter who wants to enter a handicap at a club that doesn’t have a 30 yard trap field??


    I know there are those that think because the association has extended the distance in the past it would just as easy this time however there are likely be numerous clubs that would not or could not increase their fields. Then what???


    Jerry Hauser
     
  12. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    Jerry, what does our history from just prior to the 1955 mandated 27 yard line say? Clubs having a max of 25 yards will be exempt and shooters attaining a 27 yard card will be allowed to shoot from 25 yards is what it says. It worked then, why not now? Requiring every trap club with a couple traps to put in a 30 yard pad is a ridiculous argument at best, just as it was when the 27 was mandated in 1955! It's going to take far more than one thing to fix our game, long term in my opinion. For all intent and purpose, the games difficulty hasn't been addressed since 1955. Easier, yes. Hap
     
  13. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,781
    There are prolly 13 ways to 'fix' the HCP faults ... every one of which is consequential and many have foreseeable negative effects on ATA revenues and membership.

    As long as 'The Base' feel like good scores are a birthright, reward and expectation for 'knowing the game', rearranging the deck-chairs is all that ATA can, and is willing to do.

    The technology and <i>science</i> of breaking targets - from just a few years ago - is JUST awe-inspiring.

    Of COURSE the game needs to be made harder, shorter, more interesting, cheaper ...but until/unless either: 'The Ba$e' demand$ (and $upport$) change$, and/or a far-seeing EC leadership emerges ... we can see the end of ATA (edited) trapshooting as a major game.


    Bob
     
  14. Jeff P

    Jeff P Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,689
    Sigh.

    Really. Is this all neccesary??? Has anyone in this debate EVER run 100 straight from any handicap yardage? I sure as hell haven't!

    People whine like a girls 9 year old soccer team..."I want a trophy, I want a trophy"...

    Here's a NEWSFLASH: Break all the freaking targets you shoot at, and THEN the trophies will come.

    Until you've practiced enough to do that....you're whining for a trophy you clearly don't deserve.

    You're getting beat by people that TRY HARDER than you do, for the most part. I shoot a lot (close to 20,000 a year between trap, practice, league, etc) and by no means am I perfect. Yet I win my share of trophies. I could list 25 names right now of people who DON"T win anything. Ever.

    And oddly, I never see them when I'm practicing....
     
  15. shannon391

    shannon391 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    4,477
    The ATA was out in srong force at the CC shoot this week with record crowds and pay outs.
     
  16. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,375
    Adding concrete is just not going to happen at most clubs. As Facilities Chair at our club who has built two trap fields, the payback from ATA shoots for the added concrete is just not worth it.

    Much easier at larger shoots to just add a Master 27 yard class for high average 27 yard shooters.

    JT
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    Hap- You are correct in your presentation of history. I do have some questions. If we had a 30 yard line at many, but not all, clubs it raises a question about punches. I shoot from the 27 yard line now. So far I have gotten a total of two yards in punches (last week it was only 1.5 yards, but I got another .5 Sunday). So I would shoot at the 29 yard line at some clubs (that would be a real joke) and the 27 yard line at others. What would happen if I got a punch from the 27 at a club that did not have a 30 yard line? Also, what might this do to reductions when a 29 yard shooter was forced to shoot a lot of targets from the 27 yard line? How would shooters feel about a 29 yard shooter arriving at a club with only a 27 yard line and winning all of the money? And, most important-- are you ever coming back this way so we can shoot together again? I will be a Middletown next month. If your back is really messed up, I would make a side bet with you. But, if your back is in good shape-- no bet. I need all of the advantages I can get.

    Pat Ireland
     
  18. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,390
    OK Pat how about something like this: Just have the extra yardage applicable only at larger shoots - pick a number of participants. Punches beyond the 27 only for winning score of at least 98. Mandatory reductions if caps average cannot be maintained at (pick a number, say 93%.)EDIT HERE: Maybe I could have been clearer here - I am talking about mandatory reductions only from the 28 and beyond.

    So what if a 29 yarder shoots at the 27 at smaller shoots? I don't think small shoots is what the complaints are about. No different than a current AAA shooter shooting AA at smaller shoots. Punches at small shoots for shooters that are normally farther back at big shoots will continue to be honorary only.

    Play around with these options. It could be done.
     
  19. Em_One

    Em_One TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    155
    Why is everyone so concerned about where somebody else is shooting from as to make reductions mandatory??

    I don't care about my singles average, my handicap average, nor my doubles average - I'll shoot in any weather, and whether I'm feeling up to it or not. If reductions in handicap become mandatory I'll have to care, because what incentive is there to shoot registered HANDICAP targets in all conditions? 1-3 bad scores out of 1000 targets and your average could be in the toilet, and next thing you know, you're playing PING PONG between the yardages! A couple days out of 1000 targets of wind or bad concentration and forward you go! Handicap (and trap in general) is a game that needs to be learned and practiced religiously to be excelled at, so please, someone explain the point of bouncing someone around up and down with mandatory reductions... Maybe the people calling for this are special and can break 100 from the 20, 22, 24, 25, and 27 in the same day, but I know when I was moving back, there was a slight adjustment period, whether it was technical or simply psychological!

    Seriously, if YOU don't think YOU are competitive, by all means take YOUR reduction. Just don't force it on everyone else to make yourself feel better...
     
  20. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    Pat, I feel approaching a solution to added yardage gains would work in the same fashion as it did in the beginning. Just because a shooter has earned extra yardage, it gives no one the right to deny him the ability to shoot an ATA shoot program. If the club has a maximum yardage of 27, so be it! Look at it as another honor punch if you will and as several others say? If Leo, not if but when, Leo shoots his normal 99-100 at the Grand, he earns extra yardage. At the same rate as all handicap shooters do for such fine shooting. Adding extra concrete isn't all that necessary at many clubs either! I'm sure Leo would be a lot more comfortable standing on a firm rubber mat at those extra yardage marks too, don't you? Lets begin by earning new yardage at shoots that mean the most, first, then we'll discuss other shoots?? The Grand American would be last on the list of big shoots so we begin with other Grands and zone shoots, where possible?

    I won't be able to make the great Middletown shoot this year but possibly next year. I do love shooting there a lot and enjoyed shooting with you and the gang!! My back/neck problems have taken a turn for the worse but I still manage to have a few pain free shooting days now and then.

    Make you a deal though? When I do get to Middletown, I get to choose the day and we shoot 50 handicap targets from 52 yards behind the line using new factory loads bought at the club? I agreed to just such a deal one time and won a yard from the CHC, hopefully, I might do a repeat? I'd consider that another honor yard too! I did take my reductions from the 27 to the 23 and have managed, on a few feel good days, to gain back 2-1/2 of those yards. Your long time experience at the 27 says you should spot me a few birds as odds but I'd be willing to do it heads up though? What'dya say Pat, I'm game if you are? Maybe we could charge admission to such a spectacle shoot-out too and donate it to the HOF! Options, calcutta, long runs etc.? I'm still game since I usually only feel good for a couple of rounds of trap and I'd throughly enjoy such a challenge.

    Gene Hapney (aka fezuntreaper):)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.