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first bird in doubles

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by ColBuckShot, Jan 29, 2008.

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  1. ColBuckShot

    ColBuckShot TS Member

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    Whether using 1oz or 1 1/8oz for the first bird in doubles, would it be an advantage to use #9's.
    Perhaps with a fairly open choke such as IC, I seem to be hitting them at about 30yds. Im fairly new to this and would like to improve my changes in addition to more practice, on average about 80% shooter.
     
  2. canada

    canada Member

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    if smoke ever distracts you from shooting the second target, 9's are a good choice.
     
  3. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Certainly nothing wrong with #9 shot, but the smaller size shot will not make the pattern larger and the pattern produced by #8 shot is fairly dense at the range the first bird is shot. I do not see any real advantage or disadvantage in using the smaller shot.

    canada- If you do enjoy the smoke from the first shot, you are moving to the second bird way too slow. Many good doubles shooters don't even know if they hit the first bird until the scorer says something.

    Pat Ireland
     
  4. canada

    canada Member

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    Pat

    i see what you're saying, but i disagree. i think you can ask any good doubles shooter, they know very well that the first target was hit, especially if it was smoked. if the first target was chipped however, you're right, you may not know if it was hit.

    speaking for myself, and i dont imagine i'm alone, if i turn a target into a great big black smokeball, i can see it in my peripheral vision. the temptation is to look back at it. i dont, but i still find it a distraction wanting to.

    i find 9's break them well, hit them hard, but dont seem to leave the big dense smokeballs 8's do.

    pat lamont
     
  5. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    For shells just use 1 oz #8 @ 1,200 fps for both shots. No need to distract yourself trying to put the 'right' load in the correct tube. The open chokes will work for both birds but the downside is that you tend to get sloppy. Try a mod choke for the first shot and an IM for the second. You want to get to where the targets are smoked not just broken. That's how you know you are getting the birds centered in the pattern. From there, work on speeding up the first shot when you are hitting the first bird more than 90% of the time. Practice, practice, practice is the key.
     
  6. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    ColBuckshot, you are on the right track. A load of #9 is capable of breaking them from the 27 yard line, so there is plenty of energy to spare at 30. I do think your choke selection is a little open for 30 yards. First, 9s will generally throw a more open pattern with the same choke than 8s will, and 30 yards isn't a quick shot, so I'd be more inclined to try a LM (.015") choke. If you want to stick to the IC, then definitely use 1 1/8oz #9.
     
  7. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    ColBuckshot:

    The best thing you can do to improve your scores is to focus on fundamentals including gun fit, body mechanics, techniques, and purpose driven practice.

    Shooters frequently obsess over peripheral issues like shot size, brand and model of gun, bullet brand, and an endless list of issues relative to chokes. Its an easy mistake to make. Mastering the fundaments can be tedious and normally involves work. Obsessing over side issues is easy, fun, and mostly a waste of time.

    One ounce and 1 1/8 ounce both work. Everything from 7.5 to 9 shot will work. Every choke from IC to full will work. They all work best when when appled with sound fundamentals.

    sissy
     
  8. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    sissy, no fair. You are supposed to argue the merits of your secret magic load.

    good post.

    HM
     
  9. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    recoil sissy makes good points - in particular the practice thing. If you are hitting the first bird at 30 yards, you are shooting way too slow. By the time you get to the second target it is dropping like a rock and is far far away. choke and shot size don't matter, you need to work on your technique and learn to take that target faster. You can go for that first bird in one of two ways and the great shooters are divided on which is best. But the premise is the same. You know where the targets are coming up and therefore you can shoot it quickly. The second target is not a mystery either if you get there before the darn thing is falling. If you approach the second target from below and behind, it is much easier to hit. If you just push the gun over and hope you find something to shoot at, you increase the probability of a miss. For obvious reasons, I have to keep working on my technique also, but my doubles average last year was 90.26 on 3,050 targets.
     
  10. ColBuckShot

    ColBuckShot TS Member

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    Gary Waalkes you mentioned their two ways to shoot the first bird but you described neither.
    Also recoil sissy, I understand techniques and practice are the true answers, but i have to load the gun, with what?
     
  11. otnot

    otnot Active Member

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    Shoot the first one fast with a slight upward move. If you break it fast enought the recoil will put your barrel still below the rising second target. Shift your eyes to the second target and break it on the rise. I use 1oz #8's for both shots from M/F chokes. I do shoot a lower barrel that is 100% high and an upper that is 80% high. It works for me but you have to find what works for you.
     
  12. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    People either hold high and ambush the first bird or hold very low and almost start the gun with their call but they will get on target very fast(you can do that cause you know where the target is going). the other guys are waiting for the bird to come up.
     
  13. AJ100

    AJ100 TS Member

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    Mr. Ireland knows what of he speaks. First target is almost peripheral( thats the third time that word was used on this post) vision. You will get to the second target so fast, it looks like it is hanging there not moving. Course, the best doubles I ever shot were 98's so I could be all wrong. 98's at the Grand, and they don't even know you are on the grounds.

    AJ100
     
  14. ljutic73

    ljutic73 Well-Known Member

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    AA 1oz 8's for both targets...
     
  15. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    7-1/2's for everything! No prisoners!

    Curt
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    sissy- You are absolutely correct in stating that the fundamentals (gun fit, head down, proper body movements, see the bird) are much more important than the type of gun or shells we use. But, it is so much easier for us to change shells and shot size than it is to shoot using good fundamental techniques. We want an easy way to improve our scores. We don't want to pay the price required to shoot well with any shell.

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    And all that being said, ColBuckshot has still not received many good answers to his question.

    ColB, choke selection and shot size selection go hand in hand. The idea is to maximize your chances of breaking the target at a given range.

    Billions of Skeet shots prove that 7/8 #9 and a Skeet choke (.005) is all that is needed for 20 yard targets. More is better, because it gives you a tiny bit more leeway. Personally, I don't want to go more than 1oz for the first shot, because I find the reduced recoil does help me setup more quickly for the second shot.

    A lot of Skeet shooters try to develop a load that puts all the shot in a 30" circle at 20 yards. That's fine, but you can do essentially the same thing by moving to an IS choke. 85% of the pellets in a 30" diameter circle at target range has proven to give you the best overall results. That is tight enough for smoke if you center, and wide enough that you do not have to depend on luck at the fringe.

    So if you use a Skeet choke and 1oz #9 at 20 yards, your 100% effective pattern area is 16.4" in diameter. What I mean by effective pattern area is that any bird in that area will be hit by at least one pellet. Another way to say it is a 0% chance of a miss. Going to 1 1/8oz #9 with the same parameters increases your effective patterns area to 18" diameter.

    By way of example, for the same 1oz load and Skeet choke at 20 yards, moving to #8 1/2 decreases your effective pattern to 14". Going to #8 reduces is to 10". #7 1/2 reduces it to 5". So what do you think about #7 1/2 for everything?

    Now let's take the far end. A good .020" choke (Modified) will give you 85% PEs at 30 yards. So the same effective pattern diameters apply for a 1oz load of #9s through a .020" choke.

    For the in between range, use a choke in between .005" and .020". Personally, I'd use a .015" (Light Modified) choke for 25 yard shots, rather than and IC @ .010".

    So there you have it. Using 1oz #9 loads, use a Skeet choke for 20 yard shots, a LM for 25 yard shots and an M for 30 yard shots. If you want that extra 1.6 inches of effective pattern diameter, use 1 1/8oz #9 instead.

    If you decide to use larger shot, you'll have to tighten your chokes at each yardage.

    I'm not hmb quick, but I am faster than you on my first shot. My "ideal" setup is .016" and .024" using 1oz #8 1/2 for the first shot and either 1oz #8 or 1 1/8oz #8 for the second. If I could find suitable 1oz #9 loads, I'd use them for the first shot; however, I really don't feel handicapped using the #8 1/2 with the .016" choke.
     
  18. Big Az Al

    Big Az Al Well-Known Member

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    Pat are you coming out for the Spring Grand?

    I will buy you a beverage of your choice! that last post read like what I grew up hearing from the smiths I was able to be around!

    Trying to buy birds/points, rather then earning them thru practice!

    I have gone to 7/8's loads, and have found them wicked! I work at finding the hold point were the orange streak turns into An orange dome, then just enough movement so it is not a spotshot! and on the recoil start to move my eyes to the second bird!

    I listen more then I speak when the proponents of the 7/8's load, are talking about how the light load will powder the first bird, and at the same time it hasn't taken you out of the gun so you are still in the same position on the stock as you swing to the second bird, but I fully agree with them!

    Al
     
  19. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    ColBuckShot.....zzt, above, gave you some very good advice. While I agree with him, for the most part, I do shoot different chokes and loads than he does. I shoot .020" for my first shot, and .034" for the second. I prefer a much tighter choke for the second shot. I shoot 1oz. 8's for both shots. I, too, shoot the first target as quickly as I can and, most of the time, I very seldom see the target break as I'm already moving towards the second target. Both my barrels shoot the same POI, 75/25. FWIW, my doubles average on my last 1000 targets is .945%.....Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  20. canada

    canada Member

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    i know this really isn't the point of the thread, but how can someone say they dont see the first target break? no, you cant take your time to admire your break on the first target, but you have to be looking at it when you pull the trigger. regardless of the argument, especially in windy conditions, or if the first bird isn't perfect every single time, you can't shoot that first bird by "memory".

    yes, your eyes should be moving to the second target after you've made the first shot, and they have to beat your gun over to it, but if you are looking at the first target while you pull your trigger, you should see it break.

    pat
     
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