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Fiocchi 616 primer data??

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by FN in MT, Sep 30, 2008.

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  1. FN in MT

    FN in MT TS Member

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    I'm buying the Fiocchis for $98 per 5K,whereas WW209's are close to $150.

    There's minimal data on the 616's,though the data given works with the components I have on hand and the velocity I'd like.

    Anyone done any comparisons on the current 616 primer? I've been told it compares quite closely to the WW209 ........though I'd like to see REAL loading manual data versus internet gossip.

    FN in MT
     
  2. ricks1

    ricks1 TS Member

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    size will give you a problem they are bigger and will be hard to load first time next time they may be loose and then you can use shell for anyother rick
     
  3. jbmi

    jbmi Well-Known Member

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    Wrong, same size, no problem. Go to http://data.hodgdon.com/shotshell_load.asp they have data on Fiocchi 616 and different powders. I've use 30K of Fiocchi and had no problems with them, had no problems mixing in Rem, Win, and Wolf using the same hulls.
     
  4. FN in MT

    FN in MT TS Member

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    I've loaded over 5K in both 12 and 20 ga with ZERO problems from supposedly oversized primer diameter. THAT may have been a problem with the early Fiocchis but it's nothing but an internet myth with the current 616's.

    FN in MT
     
  5. Hatshooter

    Hatshooter TS Member

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    I called Hodgdon & asked them, they said anywhere a win primer went, a fio could. Mind you, I don't trust that statement on upper pressure loads, but I've shot 40k of them with no ill effects , in all gauges. Hodgdon does have several loads listed in 12 gauge for certain powders on their website.
    Don't expect much help from Alliant, since Federal owns them. they have a few loads listed in 12 ga. that's about it. I have not called them for their help.
    It's a shame no one prints imfo for smaller gauges. best to all
     
  6. BRGII

    BRGII TS Member

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    I have done chronographing using F616, W209, STS209, and F209A primers. Everything being equal, with exception of primer, The F209A is hotter, W209 is next and close behind are the STS209 and F616. Aliant and Hodgden have data for the F616, which is identical in size to the other three primers. BRGII
     
  7. ricks1

    ricks1 TS Member

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    sorry if they fit fine they ARE .001 to .002 larger rick
     
  8. esoxhunter

    esoxhunter Well-Known Member

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    I have loaded approximately 10,000 Fiocchi primers. No problems whatsoever. The money saved over the Winchester or Remington primers can buy other components. As far as I'm concerned Remington, Winchester and Federal can keep their over priced crap. Ed
     
  9. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Several issues about the Fiocchi 616 primers.

    They are standard 209 size. The main difference is that the forward edge is full diameter, with little taper, and can give the impression of a larger diameter when you are used to seating the Winchesters or other primers with a longer radius. They have measured within a half thousandth of each other, when comparing the Winchester to the 616. The Fiocchi 615 IS a larger diameter and will enlarge the primer pocket. I still have some of these around somewhere and may measure them again to get an idea of exactly how much. Going by memory, it was just under two thousandths larger.

    Watch the data carefully, especially when using Clays powder. It appears that they can increase pressures dramatically in some loads, according to the data listed by Hodgdon.

    These have got to be the WORST Cold Weather primers I have ever used. Combine the Fiochhi 616 with some powders and you will have up to 90% bloopers or off sounding loads. Chronographing some of these loads at cold temperatures showed some very wide variations and reductions in velocity. Promo, Red Dot, Green Dot, and several others were so bad I gave up on these primers for cold weather. (Under 50? - 60?) They will work better in warm weather (over 70?), but there appears to be more variation when I chronograph them across the board. Not ALL loads were horrible when cold, but enough to have me limit these to warm weather use. Some "full house" loads seemed to be alright, but I have other primers I can use in cold weather. Federal 209A and the Winchester 209 seemed to be pretty consistent.

    I read somewhere about the possibility of "detonations" in some loads using these primers. I don't remember much, except that they were reduced loads at cooler temperatures. If I come across the article or information, I'll post it. I mention this just for the possibility there could be an issue. I don't have the exact details on hand. I would just caution about using these primers in reduced loads if there is a possibility that it could happen.

    I also got the impression that Kevin Lewis at Downrange Manufacturing had some dismal results with these primers as well. I can't speak for him directly, but a conversation with him revealed some confirmations of my own results.

    I don't want to give anyone the impression that I won't use these primers, but my use of these would be limited to warm weather and with proven data and components. I would caution against loading many flats, only to find that they don't perform well. Load a few and test them first. If you need to shoot them in colder weather, put some in the freezer for a few days and then test them when still cold. A chronograph will give some surprising results.
     
  10. OK_Shooter

    OK_Shooter TS Member

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    FN in MT

    Where do you get Fiocchis for $98 per 5K?

    Thanks, Phil.
     
  11. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    They seem a little hard for me, I had some light hits with my 90T. I had a couple with Gun clubs too, so It's borderline.

    Peformance is no problem even in -10 temps.

    HM
     
  12. FN in MT

    FN in MT TS Member

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    Phil,

    Bill Johnson from Billiings, MT. He was at the Western Grand in Spokane and hit's most of the MT shoots. His current was $98. I paid $92 in the early spring!!

    I think a GOOGLE will yield an address and phone number. He owns a Service Station but which gas brand I don't recall.

    FN in MT
     
  13. BRGII

    BRGII TS Member

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    Bill Johnson is from Washington state, Chattaroy is the name of the town, approximately 25 miles from the Spokane Gun club. Look in the On Target Magazine as he advertises there. BRGII
     
  14. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Bill Johnson is selling his current supply of Fiocchi primers at $98 even though when he runs out the replacement price for him to buy them will be $115. That is the way Bill runs his business. My reloads with Fiocchi 616 primers and AA hulls seem to be OK but I had some very weak sounding 1 oz loads using STS hulls and WAA12SL pink wads and Red Dot. I bought some Figure 8 wads for the remainder of my STS hulls and they worked OK for 1 1/8 oz loads with Red Dot.
     
  15. FN in MT

    FN in MT TS Member

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    Gentleman,

    Excuse me....I thought he was from Billings. BRGII Thanks for the help.

    Quack Shot....Thanks for the post....appreciate You takiing the time to post a lot of good information.

    FN in MT
     
  16. Big Jack

    Big Jack Well-Known Member

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    Well, I have to agree there is a difference in size..I've found a quanity of discontinued Federal 209's and discovered that if the shell has been previously loaded with a Fiocci the Fed will be loose enough to fall out. They measure from .001 to .002 larger then the Federals by my "mikes".

    Big Jack
     
  17. Bruce Em

    Bruce Em Member

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    Quacker thank you for you detailed post

    What hulls and wads gave you the bloopers? I have been using promo and red dot with old style AA hulls and green dusters. I also use PC wads in old RXP hulls again with 16.5 red or promo and 7/8 oz shot and have had no bloopers in cold weather. I use Beretta 682 and 687's the most. I am in upstate NY and the loads usually sat in the car 4 hours before I could use them. Maybe they werent that cold and maybe its the gun chamber size?

    similar story with a friends guerini 28 that reliably bloops and my Beretta that doesnt, ever. and with the exact same shells. Has to be the chamber size, no? Just a little too far out for that combination

    regards
     
  18. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Bruce Em

    I had troubles with both Remington and Win AA new style hulls. Promo and Red Dot were quite noticable with a variety of wads. Changing from the TGT12 to the Win AA12SL or clones made little difference in 1oz loads. I seemed to have a little less trouble with the 1 1/8 oz loads, but the problem was still apparent. The original WAA12 wads and Fig8 wads even had troubles. I dissected shells to see that the wads were seated correctly and never found one with an issue. These loads were in the trunk for a day or more before shooting with no warm up period. I then started testing my loads by freezing them for a day or two before chronographing them. I used to live in Upstate NY years ago and found that the primers were the key for cold weather shooting. We shot rifles, handguns, and shotguns in subzero temps on occasion. We loaded our ammo with primers that had proven to be reliable at low temps. Some of those primers are no longer made, but some are. Experimentation and testing has allowed me to find some new favorites. I was reminded of my previous experience a few years ago, even in more moderate weather. The two primers I mentioned, Federal 209A and the Winchester W209, are two that have proven reliable with most powders I have tested in colder temps. Fiocchi 616s were surprisingly poor. I had only a couple of loads with Fiocchis that were "almost" acceptable.

    There are many people that don't seem to have a problem with the Fiocchi primers, so maybe they don't allow their ammo to go into the deep freeze. Whatever the difference, if they work for you, then go for it. I have not had good results with them.

    I doubt it has that much to do with the gun, provided that the firing pin strike is sufficient. I used four different guns for testing, including a few autos. All primer hits were very good. Similar results were obtained with all firearms.

    A few years ago, a fellow that shoots at one club I frequent was having some off sounding loads. I asked him if he was using Fiocchi primers. He nodded yes and asked if I thought that was the problem. He changed over to s different primer and never had trouble since. It gets so you can recognize the sound. It's a very repeatable problem.

    I try to eliminate problems before they become problems. If a simple choice of primer can give consistent performance under all weather conditions, that's the way I will usually go. I still have a lot of Fiocchi primers to use up, but they will be used in warmer temps along with some wads that were manufactured with poor materials. These wads will fracture when cold, so they are used in warmer temps. I won't use these components for anything other than practice either.
     
  19. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Quack Shot, when my supply of Fiocchi primers runs out I'm going back to Win 209s. I think Cheddites ruined the firing pins in my Browning Citori but I don't know if they are OK in a P gun, I wonder about damage to the firing pin hole in the breech face.
     
  20. Jon Reitz

    Jon Reitz Well-Known Member

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    Earlier in the year I had 40-45 flats loaded with Fiocchi primers. These were all once-fired hulls, (all the varieties of the Remingtons and AA's). These were fired in four different trap guns, all of them having brand new firing pins in them (extra long if I could get them). These are my observations: In cold weather, there were weak sounding bloopers, several of them. As the air temperature (the shells) warmed up, the bloopers went away. In each of the guns, I had primers struck hard that failed to fire. I also had primers that were not struck hard that did not fire. Failures-to-fire occurred much more often with Fiocchi's in AA cases than in Remington hulls, but I still had some, (and even one is too many). Fiocchi primers would tend to fire much better in the top barrel of any O/U. During this period of time, my very good gunsmith, (Randy Ryan), told me, "Garbage - garbage out".

    Switching from Fiocchi to Winchester 209 primers eliminated all of these problems, every one of them. Using Winchester 209's, I didn't notice any cold weather related problems either.

    Fiocchi primers (actually probably any European primer) are inherently harder than ours. Fiocchi primers cost about 2/3 of what we pay for Winchesters, and that's why I bought and used them as long as I did. So now I'm spending the extra money on Winchester primers to eliminate the situations described above.

    I still have a dozen or so flats left with Fiochhi primers in them. Now I shoot 'em for practice, refill 'em with 209's, and tuck 'em away for ATA use.
    Draw your own conclusions, but I will never load another Fiocchi primer again.
     
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